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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another Girlguiding update

556 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 22/07/2018 21:48

I've been a bit quiet lately. I'm under investigation, which I can't discuss in any detail, although my membership is now at risk. In the meantime, I'm still a leader and Girlguiding has not changed its stance on trans issues. The following is a bit of a stream of consciousness but I'm feeling quite troubled by it and need to let it out! I'd also be interested in what parents of rainbows think.

I took my rainbows on a sleepover this weekend. It was great! It also really bought home to me the risks posed by the trans policy. I feel quite upset and tearful about it.

We had 20 rainbows in a church hall. Three women leaders, including me, also slept in the main hall - at one end, out of the way, with our own sleeping mats and bags etc - but in the same room. The other women leaders slept in an adjoining room (more of a lobby really).

The adults used the gents toilets and the girls used the ladies and disabled facilities. Despite this some girls weren’t too bothered and just changed in the hall! One nosy rainbow followed me into the gents - luckily I was only brushing my teeth and not changing - and of course I shooed her out.

How would a set up like this (which is pretty common) work with a trans child or adult? We could look for new venues with more rooms/options but Girlguiding’s stance is that the trans child and adult should use the facilities of their chosen gender. And if parents aren’t aware of the single gender/mixed sex policy, they aren’t in a position to complain or take their children out.

On a personal note, the two other leaders in the hall are women that I don’t know very well. One of them I’ve only met once before, she’s a brownie leader who came to help so we met our ratios. My sleeping mat was right next to hers as there wasn’t much space. It was fine but I could not have done this with a self identified (ie male at birth) transwoman. I don’t know any woman who would feel safe sleeping right next to a male bodied person they had only met once before. And I should never, ever be expected to do so. For all the make up, dresses, female names, most transwomen do not have bottom surgery and retain their male genitalia. I would never be expected to share sleeping accommodation with a man I don’t know (or even ones I do - I’m not sharing a room with my male colleague on a business trip next week) so why would it be acceptable in Girlguiding, provided the male said he feels female?

It really hit home that it’s only fair and reasonable to expect people of the same sex to share spaces like this. I really don’t want to make trans people feel bad or left out - but my dignity, my girls dignity and privacy, is every bit as important as theirs.

OP posts:
vicviking · 27/07/2018 07:11

Thanks Agnes for your work on this.

To GGUK I say for the sake of the girls in your care climb down and admit you got this one wrong. You won't be the only organisation that will need to do this in the coming months. You are a single sex organisation. You need to keep children safe. You clearly didn't risk assess your policy change. You just listened to biased advocacy groups and accepted their version of inclusion. I am also shocked at the way in which employees and volunteers are being made to lie by parroting such nonsensical notions to parents who raise genuine concerns. Women gaslighting other women when we all care so much about the safety and well being of children. Why?

Chocolatecake84 · 26/07/2018 22:14

I'm so sorry you're going through this, it's shit.

I want to thank you for all that you're doing. People need to know. Parents need to know. In fact, everyone needs to know.

What is happening is a massive failure of basic safeguarding and it is absolutely appalling.

PinaGrigio · 25/07/2018 15:48

Agnes, writing as a former Queen's Guide, just thank you for all you have done in raising this issue. The whole thing is making me very angry, especially the way you are being treated by GG. I think it is absolutely shocking that parents are not being informed by GG of this change to policy and that those girls who need an organisation like GG the most are in fact being told there is no place for them.

It's made worse somehow by the fact that this is an organisation set up to represent girls and young women, yet it seems prepared to throw them under the bus without a qualm. As has been noted above, why on earth aren't they meeting with you and other GC guiders to discuss this? I can only hope that the change of senior leadership will enable a change of direction on this issue.

Wanderabout · 25/07/2018 15:38

"Saying what you think and sharing your opinions is important to get your point across. Speaking out draws attention to something that’s wrong or that you think is great. Spread the word, speak out and make a difference."

www.girlguiding.org.uk/what-we-do/our-badges-and-activities/badge-finder/speaking-out/

Live your values please GG

drspouse · 25/07/2018 14:16

Queen when you get to Guides/Rangers and if you go to a joint residential you don't know all the girls.

drspouse · 25/07/2018 13:58

I'm also a Guider and I would urge you:

If you are a Guide/Brownie etc. parent or you are thinking of sending your daughter:
Please, TELL your leaders. They do NOT know about this policy unless they have been paying very close attention. GG are refusing to publicise or discuss this (the OP mentioned some media opportunities that didn't get broadcast - the media loses interest when the organisation in question won't talk to them - you may have heard this happening on the Today Programme).

Talk to everyone you know about the policy too. Especially if you know any GG parents or any leaders.

GG have slightly altered their residentials policy earlier this year to say that "everyone must be comfortable" or some such. Of course, if parents and leaders don't know this is a policy, they can't check if everyone's comfortable. But parents need to be telling individual leaders that they are not comfortable.

I too would love to know what the magic difference is between a boy, and a trans girl!

Queenofthedrivensnow · 25/07/2018 12:07

I think gg has poor business sense.
Gg is a low cost traditional activity run in church halls. I have always supported the scout movement and I was delighted dd1 wanted to go but if similar comes along without all this trans bollocks I'll think nothing of moving g her. She's my child it's my decision. I won't be the only parent who feels like this. I'll take my money elsewhere.

Meanwhile this not telling the parents thing. I know all the girls in dd1 unit half of them are in her class and the others we have got to know. Units are small

Ereshkigal · 25/07/2018 11:08

I'm at a loss to understand why the people saying this think they are the open minded compassionate ones...

It's always good when they show who they are in their own words.

AngryAttackKittens · 25/07/2018 11:04

If I run into some random wearing a white coat with an "Official Breast Inspector" tshirt underneath who am I to say he's not a real doctor?

Wanderabout · 25/07/2018 11:03

This trusting people idea is going to save a fortune in admin.

No passports needed we'll take it in trust.

No driving licence.

This cost-cutting could save post-Brexit Britain!

Noqont · 25/07/2018 10:42

Well if guiding isn't going to be honest with parents about it now being a mixed biological sex organisation, with poor safeguarding procedures, then we need to keep putting the word out there. I wouldn't let my girls join a so called women's organisation that does not have girls best interests and safeguarding at the heart of it.

Datun · 25/07/2018 10:35

.Like the Scottish sleeper train boss who said self-id for single sex cabins was fine because all their customers are trustworthy.

Why check tickets then?

Indeed. And that's exactly how it works in schools.

They all line up, and the person with a clipboard ticks them off asking are you a paedophile? If they say no, then they don't need a DBS check.

Simples.

FloralBunting · 25/07/2018 10:28

It's always the same.

I had no problems, therefore you should ignore any woman or girl who does.

I'm at a loss to understand why the people saying this think they are the open minded compassionate ones...

Wanderabout · 25/07/2018 10:03

Quite Datun .

Like the Scottish sleeper train boss who said self-id for single sex cabins was fine because all their customers are trustworthy.

Why check tickets then?

Datun · 25/07/2018 09:56

Excellent Hideandgo. You've nailed the way we make laws and safeguarding protocols in this country.

The 'I've never been burgled, so we need to dispense with house insurance' school of thought.

Mossandclover · 25/07/2018 09:55

Hideandgo did you also have to strip naked in front of those boys in a communal shower block?

ChattyLion · 25/07/2018 09:54

I agree that it’s very important to publicly discuss what GGUK Trustees are doing. Parents and volunteers need to know what is going on.

However from a charity governance point of view I don’t think GGUK can hold on to this policy (unless the equality act 2010 is changed) without changing GGUK’s legally registered charitable objects (which have always been to help women and girls).

And even if GGUK Trustees DID change the beneficiaries to include boys and men- which I’d like to think would be in the teeth of enormous opposition because Scouts already provide a mixed sex space- then GGUK would STILL have to resolve the glaring safeguarding issues that this policy causes. Eg by recommending housing Male and female bodied adults and children in the same space (and specifically saying it is NOT good practice to be informing parents of this when it is happening). This is against safeguarding good practice.

So it is important to write to GGUK about these points to add to the voices who have already done so. I think it’s also important to copy in the Charity Commission who have told all charities to make sure that their house is in order on safeguarding issues within 12 months of December 2017.

Regulatory attention is firmly on safeguarding at the moment, the Equality Act 2010 still stands, so sex IS STILL a protected characteristic, and GGUK Trustees are not above the law, however much Hmm they might wish the law was different.

Ereshkigal · 25/07/2018 09:53

She won't reply. Because she doesn't care about women and girls and she doesn't have a single decent argument as to why we should relax child safeguarding.

LemonJello · 25/07/2018 09:47

Wow, Hideandgo, you’re so, like, progressive and accepting.

Unfortunately, GG’s own research found that 59% of girls have experienced sexual harassment at school and 75% say anxiety about experiencing sexual harassment negatively affects their lives in some way

This will be hard for you to understand but, when faced with sharing accommodation with males, not all girls will feel the same way you did

OldCrone · 25/07/2018 09:44

Hideandgo
You seem to have missed the point here. Your experience is of a mixed sex trip. GG is supposed to be a single sex organisation. There's a difference between knowingly sharing accommodation with the opposite sex and finding out you are doing so when you are expecting single sex accommodation.

Just because you were comfortable with sharing accommodation with males doesn't mean that all girls will be, or that their parents will accept this arrangement. This might prevent some girls from taking part. Such girls also deserve respect and acceptance and should not be excluded to make way for boys.

Wanderabout · 25/07/2018 09:35

Also any male who wanted to could 'self-id' into this safeguarding loophole.

Massive alarm bells should be ringing and the obvious glaring problems with guides culture, approach and actual policies.

Wanderabout · 25/07/2018 09:33

Hideandgo that is good for you but utterly irrelevant to this discussion.

Guides are suspending normal safeguarding practices in certain circumstances and concealing this from parents. They are actively silencing and even disciplining those who want to talk about this.

Why are you trying to distract from this?

Ereshkigal · 25/07/2018 09:32

Cool story.

PositivelyPERF · 25/07/2018 09:31

Good for you, Hideandgo, but you don’t get to say, that because there was no sexual misconduct in your situation, then it will never happen. Girls have the right to a Male free environment, where they are at less risk of being abused.

Hideandgo · 25/07/2018 09:23

When I was a young teen we had a mixed camping out (bivouacking) session. There was about 15 of us and both male and female teachers. I slept beside my male bodied and female bodied classmates. I woke up with my feet on one boy in our sleeping bags. There was no ‘sexual undercurrent’ or male intimidation at play. We were kids and knew what was expected of us. It was wonderfully free to be able to experience the freedom of bivouacking with the boys too. No hysterical undercurrent about us needing to be separated for our safety and modesty. And these were boys, not even comparable to trans girls.

As a girl guide I would have had zero issue with trans members, we simply didn’t have any. In sleepout situations or otherwise. A young trans girl deserves better respect and acceptance from you.

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