The vast majority of male born transwomen still retain a penis

This sort of thing is really offensive. It turns the rest of us into unwilling participants in the couple's exhibitionism and other kinks.

Strange. I thought the gender critical approach supported being gender non-conformist? Or is it that non-conformity is OK so long as it isn't noticeable?

No problem at all, LangCleg. I knew what you meant. I'd just rather not offer any more ammo to those who think that womanning is done with your feelings rather than your body.

Datun

Hmm...this is a good one to mull over. Why is it so creepy?

Because autogynephilia relies on the degradation of women. And when you see that degredation being transmitted through the medium of clothes, it's creepy as fuck.

It feels creepy because our brains are subconsciously processing that we are prey in the presence of a predator.

George, i think the difference between the rock gods of the 70s and 80s and the AGPs/cross dressers of today is that men like Marc Bolan weren't fetishising or degrading women. They presented as men, just in eyeliner.

There was also a celebration of male beauty that did actually challenge stereotypes, unlike the regressive ideas behind today's gender bollocks.

Hmm...this is a good one to mull over. Why is it so creepy?

Because autogynephilia relies on the degradation of women. And when you see that degredation being transmitted through the medium of clothes, it's creepy as fuck.

And Bowl we definitely need a birth announcement! Please be sure to include whether your little one has been assigned male or female at birth. :) (Unless you already know! LOL!)

Hoping your last few weeks are as pleasant (ha!) as possible...Gotta love the biology, right?

We care!!!

Look, I used to think that all of the male rockers from the eighties were HOT. The eyeliner, the hair, the shirts (or lack of). Looking at their pix, I still think they were pretty damn sexy at the time, despite the feminine nature of their attire. And the fact that they were generally shooting for a sexualized image didn't seem bothersome either.

Hmm...this is a good one to mull over. Why is it so creepy? Is it the appropriation thing? Or just the knowledge that such a presentation now is a free ticket to my space?

I'd add that the lack of age appropriate/setting appropriate attire certainly doesn't help their cause. Seeing a 50-something individual with a beer gut and chicken legs in tight Spandex club wear at an afternoon graduation reception (true story!) was just gross and wrong.

No one said anything but the looks of shock and consternation were universal. Everyone was just looking at each other in disbelief and people were moving away.

Exactly. It's yet another part of the ideology that needs sunlight.

People are being forced to shut up about their objections to participating in someone else's fetish.

By pretending it's not a fetish, it's a right.

The more people talk about it, the more it will be recognised and raised in mainstream media.

The distinction between fetish and gender dysphoria, needs constant highlighting.

LangCleg, I think I have unusually strong spidey senses when it comes to sexual weirdness. This is because I was fairly promiscuous in my youth, though perhaps much of my spidey sense boils down to safe men being warm and enthusiastic but unpushy.

I've been raped twice but not by men I had had any consensual contact with.

Autogynephilies, transvestites, cross dressers, all appear to be dressing from a sexual motivation.

Most people will be able to see that.

And that's what causes the discomfort in the viewer.

Datun, at the last feminist meeting I attended a woman described seeing two men in their fifties walking hand in hand down her local high street. One was conventionally dressed. The other was wearing a wig in high bunches, a replica of a little girl's frock and lace edged white socks.

No one said anything but the looks of shock and consternation were universal. Everyone was just looking at each other in disbelief and people were moving away.

This sort of thing is really offensive. It turns the rest of us into unwilling participants in the couple's exhibitionism and other kinks.

Lancelottie - apologies if I was insensitive there. But yes - trust your instinct: don't logic it away.

I'm pretty crap at having spidey senses in general (probably ASD-related) and have got myself into some awkward situations because of it.

However - four pregnancies suggest I'm a woman nonetheless. And I shall try to cultivate my spidey senses rather than logicking myself out of them.

Yes, Datun - it's the difference between setting off the weirdo spidey senses and not setting off the weirdo spidey senses. Women have spidey senses. If you don't know the difference yourself, chances are that you are not a woman.

Autogynephilies, transvestites, cross dressers, all appear to be dressing from a sexual motivation.

Most people will be able to see that.

And that's what causes the discomfort in the viewer.

I saw a man wearing a white blouse, black tailored jacket, black A line skirt, opaque tights and spats.

He was also wearing a silver necklace and make up.

He looked amazing.

The message he was sending was a sartorial one, not a sexual one.

I have no problem with blokes in dresses, but if you're in your 50s, like this one, at least try and adopt age-appropriate clothing if you want to 'pass

I doubt very much this person thought they passed. More that they wanted to be looked at.

I quite like LM's style. They look very good in t-shirts and pinafores. Its a style that works well on their frame.

FloralBunting - well, yes, I would, though heaven knows I'm no style guru and mostly channel 'teenage boy' in my own clothing choices. I think the problem I'm having here is that I've very rarely seen photos of men in dresses and thought they looked anything other than silly and inappropriate.

I'm trying to work out whether that's because so few dresses are cut to suit a male shape wrong hip shape, sitting badly on the shoulders, not suiting wiry shins etc, just as men's trousers would sit wrong on me or whether it's an innate prejudice on my part.

The Blessed LM is a fashion student, I believe - maybe they could come up with a genuinely useful range of dress-style clothing for male figures.

When the season restarts I will be spending many a Saturday afternoon at the football. I will (almost certainly) be wearing trousers, I will be be shouting and using "unladylike" language, I will be being competitive and "tribal", I will have a pie and a pint or two at half time, I will mostly be really enjoying watching sport. Does this mean for those couple of hours a week I am "living as a man"? Should I use the men's toilets?

Lancelottie - would you look at other women and think about their clothing choices negatively if they were wearing something which made them look silly or inappropriate? Most of us would, even if we would be too polite to say so.

I see no difference in looking at transwomen, or just a man in feminine clothing and making the same judgements. I met a transwoman at work some months ago. He looked a bit like Quentin Crisp, with grey hair piled enthusiastically on top of the head, flamboyant scarf, great bag, and just a total air of individual style. He was also very friendly and pleasant, and we shared a joke. I really enjoy people who have fun with their individual style.

But some people wear clothes that just don't suit them or the occasion, and it doesn't much matter what sex they are.

I have no problem with blokes in dresses

See, I'd like to be able to say that truthfully, as I honestly think that women tend to look fine in traditionally masculine clothing of pretty much any kind, but in truth I think a lot of men look ridiculous in traditional women's clothing.

I'm trying to work out why, because I'm not sure I understand my own reaction - maybe it's the mutton dressed as lamb effect that would also mean I'd avoid anything too pastelly and floaty, or short and sexy?

I think small boys can look great in pastelly floaty soft things, because the peachy skin goes with the image. I'm fine with kilts (well, who wouldn't be?). And I've seen brilliant pictures of Miranda Yardley and Grayson Perry in all kinds of outfits. I think even the awful LM handles it quite well by just wearing what female students that age would often wear.

So, is it incongruity, or the wrong cut, or the obvious sexual message that sometimes makes me into a regressive fuddyduddy? Can't quite work it out.

bowl

Ah. Not getting het up might just be the ask too far!

bowl does this mean you're going to be posting less in a few weeks?

Possibly. Struggling a bit at the moment tbh. Under strict orders to rest and not get het up

Although if baby 2 is like baby 1, I will be awake constantly for the next 18m so you may see more of me ;)

My understanding is that Friendly is no more.

RIP

Perhaps they were a PBP?

It must be particularly galling that so many people are now unable to join Mumsnet, right when it's really starting to matter, because of previous obnoxious behaviour.

Karma.

Hmm, looks like you can't barge into a forum, goad the members and disregard the guidelines without consequences.

It was a bit unclear earlier...