The vast majority of male born transwomen still retain a penis

Lady Brian?

Take that up with men, just as I am doing now!

And you won't won anyone over with your lady brian theory either!

As I have said, many times over, do not look at women and ask why we are being nasty not nice. Look to the activists who have thrown ALL trans people under the bus and made it less and less likely that the long standing toilet status quo will continue.

That and it really isn't all about toilets, something you continue to ignore! Stop cherry picking, respond to an entire post...

curious
"why ask women to increase their risk?"
From my perspective, you're doing the same to me by asking me to use the men's room.

"Where is your empathy? Where is your feminine understanding? [blech]"

Empathy and understanding doesn't mean I have to agree with your conclusions.

any
Thanks Any.

I agree maryz. *
*
We've been too sympathetic already for people who don't give a shit about our feelings or safety.

It's just seen as capitulation and weakness, and a way to push past boundaries.

@YourFriendlyNeighbourhoodTrans
Why does it matter to you if a trans woman "retains" her penis? What's the rationale behind this being a big deal for you guys? Genuinely curious.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it's because the penis can be, and is, used as a weapon.

I'd be as cautious about people in possession of knives or guns in places where I have not been habitualised to expect to see them.

I don't expect my DDs nursery key worker to have a knife tucked into their belt, and I don't expect the woman washing her hands next to me in the public lavatories to have a penis.

My DD may not be at risk from her knife-possessing key worker, and I may not be at risk from the penis-possessing woman next to me; but I'm conditioned to think that way by society because knife crime, and penis crime, are a fact of life.

I take back my sympathy .

With this particular poster anyway. I'm really trying here, but running out of patience and understanding and fucking niceness

The bathroom issue came up today during a discussion - staying with friends. One of them, the CEO of an American company in Europe, said they had just introduced unisex toilets (cubicles with doors that are not floor to ceiling). As a result, the number of women who work from home has gone up massively because most of these women simply don't want to share a toilet with men. She herself implied that hygiene and safety were her main concerns but that she had no choice but to implement the company-wide policy. When I raised the issue of trans women and bathrooms, the consensus was third unisex space (a minority after all) and then male/female bathrooms (for the majority). The changes at the Ladies Pond also met with disapproval. The main idea was that young girls especially should be made to feel safe. Interestingly, the men at the table were more vocal once they were reminded that they have no clue what it feels like to be a woman. One woman said, imagine what you would feel like in a male jail...

And I'm another one who has sympathy with those who have gender dysphoria. But as others have said, it is important to keep boundaries and definitions when it comes to sex.

It's not about toilets or bathrooms. I didn't even mention them.

I'm done talking to you though, you're not really here to discuss, just to try and claim pity and victimhood just for you - and ignore everything we say as women, and every danger caused by wiping out definitions of "trans" and "female".

Fuck that. It's pointless.

Not to mention, it completely ignores the potential for people with vaginas to also be abusers

Well apart from your penis, this sentence tells every single biological women that you are not, and never will be, anything other than male.

I disagree I'm a man though. Why do you think I am?

Well given you have a male body, I think the question should be 'why do you think you are a woman?'

If you are a transwoman, then what have you transitioned from? I have a womb, have given birth, have breastfed the two children I gave birth to, have periods, and can infer from all this that I have XX chromosomes, can I be a transwoman? If not, why not?

Buy the way, YourFriendlyNeighbourhoodTrans, I do sympathise and think that this is appalling for people with genuine gender dysphoria who just want to get on with their lives, and who have probably been peacefully using whichever loo they fit best in for many years.

The trouble is that unless women say "enough" now, where will we end up?

women couldn't handle being in society for very long without having a homely space to escape to. I am glad I missed that the first time through!

YourFriendlyNeighbourhoodTrans

Just to give you a heads up- its not neccessary to use @ for posters.

In fact most people prefer that its not used unless especially neccessary as it sends an email notification to the MN member.

women couldn't handle being in society for very long without having a homely space to escape to - really? Come on. If you think we don't need it any more, fine. Campaign to get rid of all single sex spaces - no more single sex hospital wards, prisons (that'll be fun), sports, school trip accommodation, etc etc etc.

If you don't want to do that, then why not? Is it to keep women and girls safe (and provide fair play in the case of sport), away from men? If so, why let some people with penises in, but not others, just on the say-so of the people with penises.

There is no logic behind gender segregation. Either we should segregate on sex (as we do, or at least as we did until recently) or not segregate at all.

I also don't think much of the argument "bathrooms are dangerous, so let's not bother with any safety measures at all"

At the risk of making this thread the Curious Show...

I'm just here to say why I think your reasoning for your beliefs is faulty. And yet you are utterly ignoring the beliefs of many women based on their own experiences. Where is your empathy? Where is your feminine understanding? [blech]

But they WOULD be entiled to self ID snappity because anyone who says they are a woman is a woman coz they said so and to ask for proof is transphobic.

That's the bloody point of self ID and why biological women are fucked off about being appropriated in this way.

I do sympathise Your (honestly)

I wish it was different for you, for all of us.

But wishing for something don't make it the truth. Trying hard to call black white and force everyone to go along with it can never work.

I'm a victim too - so I'm fully aware of all of this. Many trans women are victims of sexual violence - usually at the hands of men So why ask women to increase their risk? Why not address male violence instead of demanding women give up their own safety?

I don't think the data we have from gender neutral spaces supports the theory and I think it's mighty naïve to assume a sign on a door has ever been enough to stop an opportunistic attacker. Again youa re missing the point. And there are many cases where designated single sex female spaces have become very dangerous to women when a man who said he was a woman was allowed in. Why do we need to let women be attacked and raped in order to safeguard the feelings of a man who has his own issues?

Let men expand their own bandwidth and accept transwomen as another sort of man. Stop demanding that women put themselves at increased risk in order to be accommodating.

That's not the point, Snapitty. Just as it isn't a point that feminists are making - ie that ALL transwomen are de facto dangerous rapists, The point is that Stonewall say it is so and that Self ID will make it possible!

And, of course, that women aren't allowed to say anything against that!

@blackdog
"But as a man, you should be using male services."

I disagree I'm a man though. Why do you think I am?

@MaryZ
"Why do we currently segregate on the basis of sex? What is the reason, historically for such segregation?"

Iirc originally we did it because of sexism and thinking women couldn't handle being in society for very long without having a homely space to escape to. But I get your point - we kept it around because we thought it was the best way to keep people safe. But is it?

I don't think the data we have from gender neutral spaces supports the theory and I think it's mighty naïve to assume a sign on a door has ever been enough to stop an opportunistic attacker. Not to mention, it completely ignores the potential for people with vaginas to also be abusers.

In a lot of ways, bathroom and changing area sex segregation is more like security theatre than an actual safety measure.

@mogleflop
I'm a victim too - so I'm fully aware of all of this. Many trans women are victims of sexual violence - usually at the hands of men also, though sometimes women are the abusers too. And bathrooms don't protect anyone from anything. There are countless stories of sexual violence in bathrooms. Can we not pretend like this is a good argument?

I'm not trying to dictate who should and shouldn't use public bathrooms. I'm just here to say why I think your reasoning for your beliefs is faulty.

True, DH got it, was horrified, but he got it!

Women live with a perpetual second guess all the time. It is so usual we barely notice we do it
Spot on. And the only people I have ever encountered who have needed this explaining to them have been male.
(To be fair to males, a lot of them get it pretty quickly too.)

You've said before there are no definitions and that they don't matter Snappity. Which is it?