The vast majority of male born transwomen still retain a penis

How much of the total number of men does that 98% actually represent?

I think if you take the current prison figures and work out the percentage of the male population currently in prison for all crimes (the vast majority of which are non violent) the number comes out to about 0.2%

I don't deny that if you experience violence in your lifetime it will likely be a man commuting the violence. However, I do disagree with you that this is grounds for distrusting all men, males or even people who have penises as each individual you run into only has a 0.2% chance of being a criminal. And even less of a chance if being likely to be violent towards you.

Since 98% of violent crime is perpetrated by males and females are wary of them as a result, you arguing that the problem in your opinion is the prejudice of the wary females instead of male violence is precisely what we are conditioned to believe.
Fortunately some of us unpack that misogynist conditioning. It is unfortunate that you have not done so.

Again, I'll reference the threats made by Julie Bindel - "kill men now ask me how".

Why are Char's provocative and offensive statements serious business but Julie's are fine?

Some of us were on the receiving end of Char's rape and death threats so hearing you, YourFriendlyNeighbourhoodTrans, declare them a nice person is just effing perfect.

TodaysUsernameIs
"My DD may not be at risk from her knife-possessing key worker, and I may not be at risk from the penis-possessing woman next to me; but I'm conditioned to think that way by society because knife crime, and penis crime, are a fact of life."

But we can say the same about a lot of things we're conditioned to believe. The fact that most bad guys on television and media are black or middle Eastern leads us to distrust those groups. Should those groups have to change their behaviour because of our prejudice? Or should we unlearn those prejudices?

I think the latter personally. Interested to hear what you think.

Bewilderness
I'm sorry you feel that way.

YourFriendlyNeighbourhoodTrans

There is no 'we' here and your forced teaming is creepy as fuck.

Woah a lot to respond to here.

Bewilderness
I'm a woman and just as much at risk of violence as any other woman is in those spaces. I know this for a fact because I live my actual life and have to deal with creeps all the time, including times when I've been stalked and sexually assaulted in public.

Datun
The "die cis scum" meme has an interesting story behind it if you're interested?

Char, the woman in the photo, got the tattoo on trans day of Remembrance. The point was to raise awareness about the ignorance towards transphobia motivated violence. The logic goes that people find it easy to ignore trans issues because they aren't trans; so what if people were so cavalier about threatening violence against cis people instead? Would they not feel the same way we do? Would they still find it easy to ignore the problem when they're the target?

I don't agree with the way she went about this, and I don't think you have to either. But to make out it was some kind of genuine threat of violence is misrepresenting her aims entirely. Its like saying Julie Bindel really wanted to murder all the men when she chanted "kill men now, ask me how".

Char seems like a nice person though, I'm not going to post any of her details of course - though they aren't difficult to find online. What I will say is that she's currently doing charity work for HIV, and seems to have stopped with a lot of the edgy and provocative crap like the tattoo.

Also, I don't not want to be male or want to be female. I just have a female sense of self, that's just what it is. I can't control it, I don't choose it. The same way I didn't choose my height or my eye colour. Am I "like you" - in some respects probably yeah. I'm different to you in others too. And this applies to all women ever. So why am I the one you choose to specifically exclude?

Louisa
"have yet to see any answer about “ living as a woman “ that doesn’t rely on a set of stereotypes that have no relation to me or my life."

I don't think the phrase "living as a woman" is all that deep to be honest. It's basically just another way of saying "I transitioned". Ie

"I've been living as a woman for 6 years"
"I transitioned 6 years ago".

The only difference between these two statements is that one informs the audience of the 'direction' of transition.

I think most trans women and cis women have their own opinions on what "living as a woman" is and how best to do it. We're all doing it slightly differently, though admittedly you're right - a lot of what people think "living as a woman" is comes down to stereotypes. But that applies across the board to all women, I know plenty of cis women who act like getting their hair did is affirming of their womanhood.

Myself? I mostly wear dude cut band t-shirts and jeans. I dye my hair red but I'm lazy as heck with the maintenance and upkeep of that. My idea of living as a woman is clearly different to the idea of living as a woman you seem to think most trans women have.

VoiceOfReason
But why? Why does not having surgery matter that much to you? It's not like it's the penis itself that does the harm - it's the person behind the penis who is responsible.

I think the fixation on penises as "weapons" is rather silly - and I'm saying this as a victim my self. My rapist raped me because he was an awful person. And had he been a woman or a eunuch, but still the same person- he would have just found a different way to be an abuser.

I'm genuinely curious about the rationale behind a straight up ban on penises. So please, if you could be extra through when trying to explain it I'd be super greatful!

I would also like to add something.

I have nothing against the transwomen posting on this thread. Personally, I mean. This is not about individuals. It never has been.

But, to me, this is a very alienating experience.

Transwomen say either they are like us, or they want to be like us. This is the claim. So much so that laws are changed and rights are ceded, on that basis.

And in the very same breath, they are opposed to us, based exclusively on our differences. There is no affinity because of the difference.

The dichotomy is impossible to avoid.

It's instantly alienating.

I can completely understand the feeling of not wanting to be male. This is the feminist board, it's fairly dur.

But concluding that one must then be female, purely on the basis of a process of elimination, doesn't cut it.

Trying to listen - thank you for telling me about your experience . But i still have no idea what it means to “ live as a woman “ .

You say

But for trans people going through the gatekeeping process, as part of our ‘real life experience’ we have to change our name via deed poll to something more feminine (or masculine), have all our documents and ID updated to prove we’re living in role and present as ‘female’ or ‘male’ e.g. wage slips, utility bills, driving license, passport.

So what does this mean for ME to “ live as a woman “?

I already have a name that is used for either sex, so my title, name, utility bills and wage slips don’t tell you anything about my sex.

I don’t see how getting my driving license and passport changed from M to F will make me a woman. That’s literally just one letter on a document .

Getting your driving license changed from Miss Jane Smith to Mrs Jane Brown doesn’t makes you married. It’s just a few words on a page that reflects a social convention.

Lots of women who call themselves Miss or Ms are in fact married. Lots of women who used Mrs are not legally married.

Miss or Mrs has no legal meaning at all, it’s just a courtesy. It may or not matter to the individual, it might say something about how they see themselves.

So can you please tell me how I can live as a woman, given that I already have a unisex name? Is that really all it is - can I live as a woman tomorrow just by changing my name from Jamie to Janie?

Genuine question.

I have yet to see any answer about “ living as a woman “ that doesn’t rely on a set of stereotypes that have no relation to me or my life.

Like you, I’m trying to understand.

I just don’t get how the average transwoman didn’t realise this.

They don't realise it because this individual does not have die transwomen scum tattooed on their arm.

In the same way that many male bodied individuals simply did not understand the MeToo campaign. Or found the widespread assault and harassment of women 'difficult to believe'.

The reason why many people with gender dysphoria identify as women, rather than with them, is because their experiences are utterly different.

And it's the same reason why the question littlbrowndog has asked has no answer.

The reason why transwomen cannot describe what it is that makes them want to be, or makes them feel like they are, a woman is because being a woman is not a feeling.

It's a description. Of reproductive function.

Males commit 98% of sexually violent crime, 90% of violent crime and the majority of all other crime. Until that comes down to zero they do not belong in female spaces where women and girls are vulnerable.

Gender dysphoria is not a good enough reason.

It does not alter the crime statistics, and is eminently fakable.

Women everywhere are saying no. Anyone who ignores this should be excluded on that basis.

Read trying to listen and homefromthehills posts with interest thank you. Yes it is the Freds that need to be safeguarded against, I do not understand how the TRAs don’t get this. Their failure to do so is indicative of something.

Men by and large accept female and male segregated spaces. While we know there are really high rates of male violence against women, we also know that most men don’t actually commit violence. To be clear, I mean that in my country about 20 per cent of women experience domestic violence for example. A crude estimate then is that 20 per cent of men commit dv. So a minority of men therefore. Arguably much higher, taking into account under reporting etc. Yet men generally accept that they need to be segregated from women and that women need safe spaces.

It is really odd to me that TRAs don’t accept that and maintain that fully grown trans women with full genitalia should have full access to women’s spaces. It is really damaging to their cause. Indeed, the attitude of the TRAs generally is putting a lot of people off. If I wanted to lose support for my issue, I would take the approach of the Trans movement. The gay rights struggle couldn’t have been more different. They won hearts and minds first over many many years, then changed laws and policies. It generally doesn’t work the other way round. Even if it is imposed on people, they will accept it for a period of time then rebel against it.

I think it's reasonable to feel 'not male' and identify with being a woman

Last night a Twitter user said that transwomen are unusual men.

Women are not unusual men. We are not men who don't identify with current cultural depictions of 'male'. We aren't smaller men, nicer men or prettier men. We are not men AT ALL.

This is why the words 'man' and 'woman' exist in the first place. It's gobsmacking that we have to keep repeating this! Aristotle argued that women are faulty men - 2,400 years later, people (read: men) don't seem to have moved forwards

Transwomen don't belong in women's spaces because they, unlike women, are male. Female isn't a word for 'unusual' or sub-macho men. It's a reproductive sex type: the sex that produces eggs & gestates young. Women are female. Transwomen aren't.

Just popping on to say I agree with Mum and AnyFucker particularly this

Even if Fred is in a tiny minority, it's still too many Freds when we are talking about safeguarding women and girls. Fred can fuck off back to where he came from

Also, as far as I'm concerned (and I believe most of the population would agree with me if asked to be honest) woman means an adult human female and THAT means a human which is genetically XX and a body with all the female bits (ovaries, uterus, vagina, breasts and so on). Unless disease has removed some of them before someone jumps on that particular bandwagon.

So there is no such thing as 'born in the wrong body' you get the body you get. That's biology. If you could self ID out of biology disabled people would be doing it all the time. Old people would be self-IDing as young. It's not REAL to self-ID as something you materially are not. And you can't possibly know what it feels like to be a woman until you've got a female body. Just like I can't possibly know what it feels like to be a man, or disabled, or 6ft 4.

Yep, Fred is the problem for everyone including trans gender individuals who just want to get on with their life as they always have

Even if Fred is in a tiny minority, it's still too many Freds when we are talking about safeguarding women and girls

Fred can fuck off back to where he came from

Surely if u want to be a women u must know wT it is u want to be?

You will not get an answer my darling. Because there isn't one. If woman has only a circular definition, there's nothing to want to be.

trans woman are indeed trans woman they do require most of the same legal rights that other woman do

So now I've fixed that, because we aren't 'other women', why do you need rights that are afforded to women purely on the grounds of their biology when you don't share that biology? You have the same rights as all males, you have rights for transgender people. Why do you need women's rights? Why do you seek to deny women privacy and dignity? Why do you think that your wants override our needs?

Good to see no deleted posts on this thread

This is Fred. Fred is a rapist. Fred is not a woman. Fred has no interest in being a woman. Fred would, however, like access to women’s changing rooms because then he has access to lots of women in a state of vulnerability. All he has to do is hang around for an hour or two until he is alone with one.

Fred loves the idea of gender self id.

Signs like this are Fred’s favourite thing.

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/student-life/11238813/University-trans-awareness-poster-prompts-huge-response.html

Fred definitely thinks that being in the women’s changing room is where he should be. He definitely knows better than some silly cow who objects to him holding her down and violently raping her.

A year or so ago I was a fluffy “live and let live” liberal whose no objection to the average transwoman coming into female changing rooms. But the TRA movement has meant that I can’t distinguish between them and Fred. Because they are determinedly removing the barriers between them and Fred.

I just don’t get how the average transwoman didn’t realise this.

@littlbrowndog

Okay, one my before I go to bed.

I’m not sure I can answer your question fully?

I don’t want to be you. I want to be me. I am a trans woman not a woman.

Transitioning helped me feel better and more productive with my life as pre-transition I had major dysphoria, and knew my body parts (genitalia) were wrong and how my body looked just felt completely and utterly wrong.

Transitioning helped get rid of those feelings. Hormone therapy helped a lot - the mental effect of that in a trans person is profound. It feels like you’ve been running on the wrong fuel all your life and now you’re running on super premium fuel.

I didn’t fully realise how horrible testosterone made me feel before it was gone.

I hope this answers a little bit?

Good night

Still no answer

@blackdoggotmytongueagain

I’m about to go to bed so don’t have time for a full answer to you. If the threads still going tomorrow I’ll have a better think about it.

I agree a potential problem with the GRA act review and self-ID is that it could let a much broader range of people change their birth certificates.

I agree this can cause a threat to female spaces because people who have been abused and have PTSD or similar won’t want to share those spaces with people with male genitalia, no matter how nice or kind they are.

I think medical gatekeeping and counselling and the ‘real life experience’ need to be kept as part of any reform so only those with Gender Dysphoria, who the act was intended for, can make use of it.

I think lower surgery should be a big part of that but I can’t say it should be compulsory to get a birth certificate updated as there will always be exceptions who can’t have surgery for very good reasons.

The problem at the moment, in my opinion, is that the trans umbrella is so bloody large now even I’m confused who is included in it. Any GRA reform to self-ID should be limited to those diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria which would go some way to ensure it was genuine people using the service, not those wishing to encroach on female spaces.

Anyway, I need to go to bed.
Good night all!

From my perspective, you're doing the same to me by asking me to use the men's room.

All the evidence available so far demonstrates that you would be perfectly safe in the men's room. There is not a shred of evidence to indicate you would be in any danger at all.
Since the men's room is where men are known to drag women to assault them obviously the same cannot be said of us.

So they got to tell us wat the women part it is that is wanted to be the women surely

But voice they never said wat bits of us women they want to be.

Surely if u want to be a women u must know wT it is u want to be?

bespin that was a bit of stream-of-consciousness there, and I think I can imagine why (though I'm not you, so wouldn't dream of putting myself into your shoes). It must be a really difficult time for you right now, when people are shining the light on the trans--agenda, and talking about what Stonewall and others classify as 'trans' (ie, probably not what you idenitfy as). I really do empathise with your position right now.

I'm a bit confused though. (I've had a glass of prosecco in the sun today, so forgive me if this doesn't make huge sense!)

What rights have you garnered through 'living as a woman' that you are so worried about being taken away?

If noone can challenge and ask for a GRC, as it's a 'hidden' document, then it's surely an 'invisible' right?

you say:
trans woman are indeed trans woman they do require most of the same legal rights that other woman do

I don't understand this, and I'm not being disingenous. A female cannot be a transwoman, because a transwoman has, by definition, a male body, otherwise there's nothing to 'transition' from.

So why do transwomen deserve most of the same legal rights that females do? Because they are not the same. The risk of your debate is that any male-bodied person who says they feel 'female' therefore deserves the same legal rights as females. Are you OK with this?

When you say 'most', which rights do you think females deserve that transwomen do not - because otherwise your sentence would be 'all rights that women do'.

Which rights do females retain in your 'most rights' definition?

The right to privacy?

The right to dignity?

The right to laws tht protect females?