The vast majority of male born transwomen still retain a penis

I think the fixation on penises as "weapons" is rather silly - and I'm saying this as a victim my self. My rapist raped me because he was an awful person. And had he been a woman or a eunuch, but still the same person- he would have just found a different way to be an abuser.

I'm genuinely curious about the rationale behind a straight up ban on penises. So please, if you could be extra through when trying to explain it I'd be super greatful!

OK, let's see if this works for you: women want a ban on penises in their safe and segregated spaces because penises are attached to men and we cannot trust strange men, because too many of them want to harass and/or hurt - or even kill - us. We believe that the notion that "some women have penises" is absolute and utter nonsense.

Many of us - MANY - had strange men expose their penises to us when we were children and we found it terrifying; too many men like to expose them to girls and women - they seem to find this sexually stimulating. So we also don't want our children exposed to them in our safe and segregated spaces, either.

Finally, we believe that a significant tranche of the men now claiming to be "trans" (within the extremely wide spectrum described by Stonewall) are doing so because they are sexually stimulated by this and by the exciting notion that they might be able to get access to girls and women in their safe and segregated spaces.

THAT is what we feel, believe and know. And no amount of your bizarre clothing-related and other analogies or attempts to persuade us that women can be violent too will change that.

I'd be genuinely curious to hear what definition of "nice" might include your baseball bat wielding, neoNazi mate above.

I just don't get how that person with the baseball bat is a 'woman'. Can someone please explain?

Char seems like a nice person

That's what they say about a lot of violent males. How this image is meant to meant women feel safer with people like this in DV refuges & hospital wards, I have absolutely no idea.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2018/07/no-fundamentally-decent-men-don-t-kill-their-wives-stop-excusing-domestic

Can we be frank? I think the push to end the boundaries of sex-segregated spaces has less to do with safety and more to do with validation.

Case in point: just went to a large national retailer that sells stuff made in Sweden...new store. I was VERY impressed by their bathroom layouts--traditional men's and women's restrooms, but an additional family/baby room and two "all gender" restrooms. I thought they had it all covered! Imagine my surprise, then, to find myself washing hands next to a clear transwoman in the women's bathroom.

I imagine that, for the old-school transsexuals for whom safety was their primary concern, a private gender neutral bathroom would have been very acceptable. But not anymore. It's about demanding acceptance. Choosing the women's bathroom because "I am a woman, therefore it is my right." Private gender neutral bathroom? No way, transphobic and unnecessary because "I am a real woman." (Cue IW here and let that "penetrate.")

We are giving up our safety and security so that a few be-penised individuals can feel good about themselves. Glad that I could be part of the backdrop in this individual's charade...

I agree this can cause a threat to female spaces because people who have been abused and have PTSD or similar won’t want to share those spaces with people with male genitalia, no matter how nice or kind they are.

Ahem.

All women are entitled to be free of penises in their safe spaces.

We do not have to display PTSD, or have been attacked or abused BEFORE we are ALLOWED to be in spaces free of penises.

It is a very good way of not having more women who have PTSD, or who have been attacked or abused in the future.

Anyone who thinks women can be allowed to have safe spaces IF they have already been abused, attacked or already are suffering from MALE VIOLENCE - should be nowhere near women.

Otherwise what you are saying is that ALL WOMEN/GIRLS are fair game until they display such affects.

Fuck that shit.

Excellent post LOUISA.

I think that the transexuals and gender dysphoric transwomen on this thread and real life are the wrong people to ask, Tanith. I think a lot of them would be happy with safe third spaces. And, as can be seen here and elsewhere, many of them are happy to talk about it, albeit anonymously as they are rightly scared of the backlash.

Unfortunately the extremists aren't going to talk. They don't see the need for any sort of compromise while they can just go around yelling TWAW and threatening anyone who disagrees. Why would they compromise when this way they can win. They don't care who they chuck under the but - women, children, gender-dysphoric people; in fact it seems that a lot of them are enjoying it.

Maybe friendly should go back to the men's room, since women are just as dangerous anyway?!
Mansplaining rape on a feminist board doesn't make you look more feminine fyi. It makes you look like a red flaggy mra parade.

I would like to ask two questions.

1. Why are so many transpeople opposed to the compromise of third spaces, i.e. male, female and trans/unisex?

1. Why the insistence on "nodebate" about transrights when it's clear that, once all parties do debate, they find a lot of common ground on which they can agree?

I still have “baby steps” unanswered questions.

I) When I was a young woman, “living as a woman” for two years made sort of sense. Nowadays I honestly don’t know what it means. I don’t think, for example, that you could step into the traditional female role in a relationship without having been socialized into it from childhood. Or experience the specific type of workplace discrimination that some experience. Transwomen do share the constant background awareness of potential male violence- but this seems to be a bit of woman’s experience that they want to deny.............

2. I get that I am supposed to accept that TWAW. But why? I am wholly in favor of trans people having all the rights and justice and courtesies that everyone else has, including the right to live their lives in peace and comfort and unharassed. But why does their dysphoria become objective truth? On what basis do I have to accept their dysphoria as objective truth and not any other dysphoria?

3)And finally. Who gains from this? Who is behind it and who is making money out of it? Because as sure as hell somebody is. Does it involve enough people for the pharmaceutical companies to be pushing it?

Re "cis", this recently came up with a friend who's gay and who's been trained to use it. He said it referring to me, noted my narrowed eyes and displeased look, and asked what was wrong. I explained. He has not used it since.

Now him? Him I trust around the women and girls I know and love.

Logic! If society agrees that anyone can enter those spaces if they say they ought to be able to the section of the 1% that are genuinely vulnerable won't be any safer than they were before either, but hey ho, a few very shouty people on the internet will be happy so who cares?

Here's a fucking massive red flag correlated with abusive behaviour and sexual offences: Boundary Violation. So do ponder why women might not want overbearing males with no empathy towards women in female spaces.

This. If you (generic you) are a male-born person who can't hear a "no" about something trivial - for example, the use of "cis" in a space where the term is banned - without demonstrating entitlement to ignore it, then you (generic you) are hanging out a red flag that an important "no" won't be respected either and you (generic you) therefore have no business being anywhere near places where women are vulnerable.

A misogynistic bigot

You know, I've just had my mind completely changed by this argument:

50% of the population are treated badly by the other 50%, so much so that historically they have fought for safe spaces

1% of the second 50% are also treated badly by the remaining 49%

Trans solution: let's take away the safe spaces from the original 50% to make the 1% feel better and the 50% feel equally unsafe

Obvious, isn't it. Anyone who disagrees is a bigot.

I find it odd that whenever male born people talk about living a woman they never, ever mention cleaning the toilet, or helping their elderly parent take a shower, or always being the one the school rings when a child is sick.

I just have a female sense of self, that's just what it is.

But HOW?

No one has ever been able to explain this to me without circular logic or appeals to faith.

How do you know? How do you know what women feel like? Think like? Women are telling you there’s no one way we all think and feel.

Woman is a biological descriptor. It’s a physical state, not an opinion, a performance or a feeling.

With all this 'Not All Men' and 'Women Do It Too', friendly should be just as safe in the gents by their reckoning.

Post of the Month. I'm wondering if we'd all be safer in the gents. Women sound very dangerous and violent.

Can we not pretend that the vast majority of sex crimes, vast majority of violence including domestic, and all rapes are not committed by men, please?

This. Not all men are violent but a significant proportion are that we have safeguarding procedures like sex segregated spaces. We also don't know which of the penis people are going to pose a threat, so we have to look out for red flags. Here's a fucking massive red flag correlated with abusive behaviour and sexual offences: Boundary Violation. So do ponder why women might not want overbearing males with no empathy towards women in female spaces.

Why would your feelings trump mine?

If you genuinely believe, friendly, that women are every bit as dangerous as men, why do you think the female spaces would be safer for you?

You are attempting to have it both ways. Either sex segregation is sometimes necessary and useful for protecting the safety and dignity of the female sex, or it's needless and overblown because the female sex is just as dangerous as the male sex.

I'm pointing this out for the lurkers, really, I don't think the absurdity will occur to you, because your only play is to use each contradictory position to back up your demand to be allowed where you are not welcome.

With all this 'Not All Men' and 'Women Do It Too', friendly should be just as safe in the gents by their reckoning.

And if there are any problems, then friendly can simply call the police.

Literally anyone can be a rapist - and though yes, most women are raped by people with penises, no doubt about that. Though this isn't grounds to treat all people with penises as if they're potential rapists.

Someone who actually had the mysterious inner sense of being a woman that the person who said the above claims to have wouldn't be in any need of this link, but since that does not appear to be the case perhaps this will be helpful.

kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/

I think most trans women and cis women have their own opinions on what "living as a woman" is and how best to do it. We're all doing it slightly differently, though admittedly you're right - a lot of what people think "living as a woman" is comes down to stereotypes. But that applies across the board to all women, I know plenty of cis women who act like getting their hair did is affirming of their womanhood

I agree with you on the first point. I have asked many transwomen what it means to live as a woman and no one can ever answer.

If you ask them why they KNOW they are a woman or want to be a woman the answers are some of the following :

1. I don’t indentify with many aspect of modern masculinity and feel out of step with some other men

1. I enjoy the “ women as decorative objects “ aspect of modern femininity

1. I am sexually aroused by the Idea of myself as a woman and by forcing others , especially women, to say that I am female and for me to be allowed into their private spaces.

1. I feel unhappy and confused in life and hope that acting in this different way will bring me peace and contentment.

If you ask born women why they are women they say

1. Biology , genes , bodies

1. Shared experience of being oppressed as women - wifework , default child and elder carer, paid and promoted less, domestic violence, rape and sexual assault,

I have NEVER heard a biological woman say that the only reason she know she is a woman / lives like one is that she enjoys going to the hairdressers .

I have NEVER met a TW who has taken on any of the “ women as default carer” role that actually defines “ being a woman “ for most born women.

I’ve yet to meet one who gave up their career to be a SAMP because their partner earned more. And who now works back shift on the till in Asda and takes their granny out at weekends. Or who is raising their kids on their own on the breadline while their kids ex lives the affluent single life.

No one seems to want the “ woman as default carer and paid less for the same job “ kind of womanhood. That’s the kind of “ living as a woman “ that is reality for most of us.

Should those groups have to change their behaviour because of our prejudice? Or should we unlearn those prejudices?

Are you saying women should give up our "prejudices" and stereotyping of all males? Straight out of the MRA playbook.