The vast majority of male born transwomen still retain a penis

I've just shown this thread to a friend who was previously 'live and let live' about self ID. She gets it now. (Hi B! ) Please don't report any MRA type posts on this thread - they should remain... helps make it all clear.

But punishing me because some people who have the same chromosomes as me are bad people? I will not abide!

Why not? I'd expect my sons to abide by sex segregation. That's why I mentioned them. It doesn't imply that I think they are rapists.

Male bodies in spaces designated for females are not respecting boundaries or complying with a ‘reasonable expectation of privacy’.

Not all changing rooms have cubicles. Showers are often communal.

In a public space like a public bathroom? Your boundaries kinda get limited to the reasonable expectation of privacy. That is to say that as long as I'm not doing anything creepy or weird, and I'm just there to use the facilities and leave? I'm respecting all legitimate boundaries.

I don't think you have a legitimate boundary which extends into the cubicle next to yours and have no right to decide that person doesn't get to be there because you personally believe they aren't a woman, or that penises are weapons of mass destruction.

Its not a redflag. I just have self respect and won't kowtow to people who treat me badly because I'm unfortunate enough to live an existence which isn't supported by their ideological perspective.

I'm sure you, as supposed feminists, can understand this. :)

How am I being unfriendly here exactly?

You are pushing an agenda that will remove single sex spaces. Removing single sex spaces will lead to a reduction in safety for women and children.

It matters not one whit if an individual transwoman is changing invisibly - what matters is the erosion of our spaces and boundaries.

If you can’t respect women’s boundaries and other transwomen on this very thread can and do then that is a huge red flag.

Don’t you just love it when people who are not women come into threads where women are discussing their specifically female experiences and concerns, in order to tell us how we’re experiencing and doing womaning all wrong?

Oh, spoiler alert: we don’t love it at all, and we can spot it ten paces against the wind, because it happens to us ALL THE FUCKING TIME.

'Gender' segregation does nothing to assist women and girls, even if it's useful to transwomen.

Sex segregation is useful to women and girls. Provably so.

Me: CDC statistics show that men are raped by women almost as much as men rape women.
Datun: Show me the murder rate of women on men!!!!

This is a derailment. The topic at hand is about rape - as apparently sex crime is the biggest reason why having a penis in women's spaces is inherently a danger to women. Please stay on topic! :)

Lancelottie
I'm pretty friendly, but I won't be treated badly or differently because of things I can't control. If you don't like my opinions and think I'm a jerk? Fair enough. That's on me for the opinion. But punishing me because some people who have the same chromosomes as me are bad people? I will not abide!

I use women's facilities all the time - I don't expose my self, or stare at anyone, or even use facilities which don't have cubicles I can change privately in. 99% of the time you'll likely never even notice I was in there with you. How am I being unfriendly here exactly?

I like that Chestertons fence thing that someone mentioned on here datun

Makes a lot of sense to me, especially as i dont really see the problem with sex segregation with the 'honour' system of the past

Alice

A man pushed his head under my cubicle at a pool in Hertfordshire 20ish years ago. It had only just gone unisex.

Now I use a pool (and gym) with seperate female facilities and pay extra (compared to other local leisure centres) for the ‘privilege’.

Yes rape is self-reported, and then investigated. Which is how we know about the lack of reporting and lack of conviction rates. And yes, I have no doubt at all that there are certain women who are sexually aggressive, and worse.
But nothing on the scale of men. (And it's a little bit silly of you to suggest it.)

Which is why we segregate by sex.

The risk assessment is done on the basis of risk. And the biggest risk is that you are born male.

If not, show me. Show me the evidence that two men a week are killed by women.

That's got to be the easiest thing. Because there is no ambiguity. You can't be a bit dead.

Give me the figures.

because datun - sex segregation would put women at risk. Specifically intersex CAIS women and trans women who are both male and women.

not to mention just drawing the line at sex seg is ridiculous - there are examples where opportunistic attackers ignore the mystical door sigils power and go into spaces they dont belong in to attack women already. don't you think its kind of silly to just assume we've solved the problem by saying they're sex seg'd?

because I massively disagree we have fixed the problem with sex seg, even if only cis... i mean uhh... 'not trans' people existed. It would still be a bad policy to rely on because anyone who would attack another person doesn't give a heck if they "aren't allowed" in those spaces. They also aren't allowed to rape people, I don't think they care very much about what they're allowed to do or not to do.

Many swimming pools now have mixed sex changing rooms. Never seen a problem at Windsor swimming pool. Much mor relaxed for families too.

angry

Very good point...

forced envelopment

Are they identifying as phagocytes?

Sex is a binary in your opinion - but that isn't the opinion of other people. Many people view it as a spectrum. Neither lens to view sex through is wrong,

No, sex is a binary. Biology isn’t an opinion, it’s fact, built on thousands of years of observation, research and analysis.

No serious scientist views sex as a spectrum (and for the love of god don’t post that Nature Op-Ed, we’ve seen and talked about that approximately twenty thousand times.) they dont. Sex is binary.

A tiny number of people think sex is a binary. Some people think the queen is a lizard. Some people think chemtrails are a thing. Some people believe some really, really weird shit. But what actual scientists, doing actual science know is that sex is binary. Male, female. That’s it.

And yes, the lens of science is correct and the lens of binary/queen being a lizard/chemtrails is wrong.

There’s a problem at the moment with people thinking their ill informed opinions are the equivalent of factually researched arguments. There’s a lot of it about, I’m afraid.

God, it's tedious, isn't it?

Are you friendly enough to leave single-sex facilities to those of that sex, please, Friendly N? That's what some of the transwomen who have come on here have said they will start to do. I think they are admirable.

It doesn't matter that you think or know that you are no threat to women. I don't suppose my OH or sons are, either. They would still make any woman/girl nervous by walking too close at night, staring at them on a tube, following them into a loo, or using the girls' changing rooms at school or uni. They still don't have the first idea of how a female body feels to its owner, or how we deal with its inner workings. They are still bloody well bigger, and a physical contest would be no fair contest.

friendly you realise the name was a massive klaxon even before all the forced teaming & not accepting a no?

The trans extremists are impossible to separate from the old school MRAs but better funded...

I dont want a male body in the open plan changing room my 9yr old uses. I dont want a male body on the ward when my 70ur old mother is recovering from surgery. I dont want my sister locked in a psych ward with a male body.

Males can use the male facilities or mixed sex ones. If it says women or female STAY OUT.

Instead I think the best way forwards is secure gender neutral facilities. Ones with floor to ceiling doors and walls, with a CCTV camera watching the door to see who enters and leaves and perhaps even a panic button (like a fire alarm) as is the case with some of these spaces already.

Let's get this straight. You need fully enclosed cubicles which can't be jimmied open, CCTV and a panic button?

How about, and I know this is a radical thought, so bear with me, brace yourself, how about just keep it as it is using segregation by SEX.

Dear God.

And again, another deeply disturbing demonstration of the dismissal of decades of safeguarding protocols, which have resulted in law.

Floor-to-ceiling enclosed cubicles are dangerous.

Maybe women are incredibly dangerous except while we're in the toilet?

I agree with you datun regarding the women are just as bad comments

Datun

Pretty much all rape is self reported - its not like the rapist tells the police on themselves. So why would self reporting via telephone survey be different exactly?

yourfriendly

That link you posted was a telephone survey.

I asked for the data and citation that say women are as much of a threat to men as the other way round.

It does amaze me how certain people spout such rubbish.

Show me the women who kill two men a week???

Show me.

Yes, the desperate scrabbling to justify the indefensible. Claiming that women are just as bad as men on the one hand, but you can't go in the men's toilets because men are dangerous.

It's risible.

Rubbernecking car crashes is no new thing.

Wow that got to be the biggest load of bollocks ive heard in ages

Naughty women raping men

I mean its an actual thing...laws mainly made and enforced by men, male journalists still outnumbering women and a handful of reports

But yeah its an actual thing (as opposed to a relative rarity)

Its just a really secret thing