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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Every parent should read: transactivisms dangerous myth of parental rejection

34 replies

Wanderabout · 21/07/2018 09:14

Every parent should read this:

quillette.com/2018/07/20/trans-activisms-dangerous-myth-of-parental-rejection/

"[another] problem with the belief that parental rejection is the norm is that it makes for bad policy. How can a society function efficiently if it cannot depend on parental good faith toward offspring as a bedrock assumption? This does not mean, of course, that there aren’t truly awful parents who reject and abuse. But they are the exception rather than the rule. To establish guidelines and policies based on these exceptions dangerously arrogates too much authority to the state and institutions for children’s well-being and undermines the role of the parent. This leads to policies that range from the dangerous to the absurd.

OP posts:
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Mogleflop · 22/07/2018 14:32

The number of girls requesting to transition has risen so sharply lately, and they're often autistic.

The thing is if you're autistic, you often take rules seriously, it can be pretty black and white. Either you're on-side or you're not. I'm autistic and battle this myself.

If you're a teenage girl and your online internet communities, authorities like the NHS, and your school teachers all tell you something (along with the normal feeling that your parents don't understand or appreciate you), then yes the parents can easily now be The Enemy.

R0wantrees · 22/07/2018 11:18

April 2018 Catherine Bennett wrote in The Observer after 10 people were murdered, and many more injured deliberately in Canada:

'Violent misogyny is unfortunately not confined to the internet’s ‘incels’ ;Killers are rare; more commonplace are terrible fantasies of abuse against women'

(extract)
"In the days since the Canadian man murdered 10 people, a good deal of attention, including glossaries of special terms, has focused on the peculiarities of “incel” online behaviour. Here, the standard misogynistic repertoire – “you deserve to be raped”, etc – is ornamented, a bit, with coinages such as femoids. But actually, so what? To many social media users, neither the language nor the sentiments expressed in posts such as the one above, however far along the woman-hating continuum, are likely to look radically out of the ordinary.

Apart from anything, Jack the Ripper, who would now be the toast of angry celibates, had the disembowelling idea 130 years ago. And further demonstrating that misogynistic tropes are by no means the monopoly of resentful male virgins, curators at San Francisco library are currently staging an exhibition featuring a display of dissident-silencing weaponry (axes and bats) and other hate-advertising artefacts.

Photographs of one vitrine, featuring a red bespattered T-shirt reading: “I punch terfs!” (trans-exclusionary radical feminists/women who disagree with me), may have struck a chord with anyone following the current UK debate about the government’s self-ID proposals. To date, threats, from one side, which echo, inescapably, some of those in the pro-Rodger playbook (“die in a fire terf scum”) have yet to generate comparably widespread concern, even after a woman was punched. Her assailant had earlier expressed the wish to “fuck up some terfs”.

For many prominent women, the violence threatened by Rodger fans must sound especially familiar. Caroline Criado-Perez, to whom we owe the new statue of Millicent Fawcett, is just one brilliant woman to have been rewarded, on Twitter, with sexualised menaces (”choke you with my dick” etc), which attracted nowhere near the appalled interest that now surrounds “incels”, as we should surely agree not to call these men, and not only because it implies that involuntary celibacy represents a special condition. It’s often called, for instance, “being single” and is what dating websites were invented for.

To agree to use the lads’ pet terminology, is, moreover, to suggest that something distinguishes them from legions of other threatening men expressing a similar wish to control, punish or just silence women and, critically, in similar language. Such as, to non-compliant sexual targets, “choke on my dick”. A glance at Twitter confirms how generously such abuse has been accommodated, even as the repetitive insults and threats indicate gendered hostility to women in general.

If sexism does not explain how rapidly the language employed against dissenting women (including some trans women) in the UK self-ID debate, degenerated, in some quarters, into generic-sounding obscenities (eg, to unco-operative lesbians, “choke on my ladydick”), perhaps it’s because social media has for so long facilitated the delusion that hate speech, as applied to women, is simply part of the landscape.

The very odiousness of the misogynist language that has become, according (pre-Rodger) to one academic, Emma Alice Jane, “a lingua franca in many sectors of the cybersphere”, may help explain, she argues, why the “ethical and material implications” of this form of hate speech have been so under-studied. Hate speech that persists unchallenged, by both – for their different reasons – reactionaries and progressives, is unlikely, anyway, to be corrected." (continues)

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/29/violent-misogyny-not-confined-to-internet-incels

FermatsTheorem · 22/07/2018 09:59

UpstartCrow: Male rights activism and the incel movement teaches men - among other things - that they are naturally dominant and women secretly want to be submissive, but are hampered by feminism.

And that's where there's yet another huge (and worrying) overlap. If you look at some of the twitter tags devoted to transitioning, you'll see a recurring theme (minority, I think, but sizeable minority*) of transitioners who see female sexuality as equivalent to sexual submissiveness. Oh, and of course Heather Peto in Heather's own words. Not to mention Paris Lees waxing lyrical about how sexy it is to watch Paris' reflection in the mirror, tears streaming down face, while being spit-roasted by two men (that's a matter of public record - the original article was somewhere pretty mainstream like HuffPo).

This of course overlaps with the misogynist trope of most mainstream porn - that women are there to be abused, oppressed and physically assaulted in the course of sex. And another overlap with "sex pozzie feminism" (though quite what's sexy or positive about being strangled during sex, or forced through poverty to engage in prostitution, has always escaped me), whose advocates always strike me as suffering from too much exposure to male porn/bad relationships, which has left them suffering from a form of Stockholm syndrome.

*Incidentally, that's why I'm not going to link to the twitter tag often mentioned in these discussions, because it seems to me that the majority of people on there are trying to engage in a mutual support network, with only a minority posting sexualised images.

enoughisenough12 · 22/07/2018 09:58

It bears repeating that our safeguarding 'rules' and society's approach to parental responsibility have evolved over decades and are a consequence of the abuse and death of many children.

When we tell adults not to keep confidences but to share information, we do this because children have died as a result of previous failures to share.

When we say work 'in partnership' with parents it is because we have learnt that children fare badly outside the love and protection of their families. When children need to be removed from abusive and dangerous parents, the courts sanction this with lots of checks and balances

That these current systems / principles are being openly undermined by transgender organisations funded by the government is a chilling example of the 'collective individualism' that RedToothBrush is talking about. These groups have not sought consent or negotiated their belief that our safeguarding rules are wrong. They simply impose their own view of the needs of children, demand that professionals follow their way and enforce it via a combination of threats, bullying, and harassment - and all with the collusion of those in power (who evidently have zero experience of working with abused children).

LangCleg · 22/07/2018 09:41

Of course in this situation the weakest and least able voices are drowned out, often with the noisiest claiming to represent these individuals, however if you scratch the surface the interests of these people always comes second to the interests of the individuals running the mob mentality. The ideology and membership of the group is cult like.

The voice of minorities who are all ready pretty marginalised is lost further in this power dynamic as is the concept of state protection of those individuals with it.

This, this, this.

RedToothBrush · 22/07/2018 09:19

The ideology is based on 'collective individualism'. In collective individualism power likes with the group of individuals who are best organised and can communicate together a like minded agenda most effectively.

It is not dissimilar to the concept of being ruled by mob rule, where the state does not exist, and behaviour is controlled by pressure to conform and other beliefs or descent from the group mentality in crushed as quickly as possible.

Of course in this situation the weakest and least able voices are drowned out, often with the noisiest claiming to represent these individuals, however if you scratch the surface the interests of these people always comes second to the interests of the individuals running the mob mentality. The ideology and membership of the group is cult like.

Of course ideas and groups that form outside this and have an alternative narrative are seen as the biggest threat to collective individualism. These groups are about theories and ideas which occupy politics and are not really about real world physical threats. They are always 'literal' and it is interesting to see how they refer to literal violence and literal communism. It's a statement of how these are theoretical movements which have originated in the unreality of cyberspace.

People who can not tell the difference between the theoretical and fantasy of the unreal and the cold rather harsher and brutal real world.

Unpicking language and what people are saying about themselves and their ideology is utterly fascinating. Take it literally because the inability to differentiate between the simplicity and ideological purity contained within uptopianism and the real world mechanics of how ideology plays out in practice is a fundamental dynamic of populism and thus current politics.

The voice of minorities who are all ready pretty marginalised is lost further in this power dynamic as is the concept of state protection of those individuals with it. The tyranny of the majority.

Starkstaring · 22/07/2018 08:29

There is a massive problem with guidance being produced by experts. A governing entity delegates formulation of a policy to a group who know a lot about it (but can include lobby groups, activists etc whose views may be skewed by whatever lens they view the world). Their policy is then adopted wholesale because the entity which commissions it acknowledges it has no expertise. But then no one is applying common sense (for want of a better word) or a holistic view.

You can find parallels everywhere - in board rooms; in local and national government; in medical practice.

Wanderabout · 22/07/2018 07:35

confidential disclosures
dispensation of multi-agency working
parental alienation

How can anybody not see that this is a recipe for disaster?

And here is an example of a possible problem that may have already occurred partly due to inappropriate and sometimes dangerous advice in school packs:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3313760-Up-to-150-youngsters-treated-with-puberty-blocking-jabs-might-not-even-be-transgender

OP posts:
Waddlelikeapenguin · 21/07/2018 17:35

The problem in Scotland is the SNP i could just post that have already made it repeatedly clear that they do not think parents should be responsible for their children.

They continue to attempt to get Named Person into law despite it being pulled apart by the supreme court.
no2np.org/named-person/

womanformallyknownaswoman · 21/07/2018 14:45

So, in short, we are talking about three main safeguarding failures in trans lobby guidance to schools and other bodies dealing with gender-questioning children:

confidential disclosures
dispensation of multi-agency working
parental alienation

How can anybody not see that this is a recipe for disaster?

It's all the ingredients for grooming - get their confidence, isolate them, threaten them that something bad will happen if their parents are informed.

Maryzsnewaccount · 21/07/2018 13:33

When I was a teenager, anorexia was the acceptable, socially contagious, disease (along with self-medication for depression with various drugs).

Imagine the horror of official government guidance saying that schools couldn't raise concerns about anorexia with parents, that they weren't allowed to tell parents that they were helping anorexic students to go on diets. Imagine parents being threatened with social services if they tried to get their anorexic children away from pro-ana sites and to their gp. Imagine the outcry if parents were forced to apologise to their children and agree that they were overweight.

It's baffling that the comparison can't be made.

enoughisenough12 · 21/07/2018 13:19

@R0wantrees
Thank you. That's a terrifying read - and very informative.

enoughisenough12 · 21/07/2018 12:45

I'd argue that an additional safeguarding issue is the use of untested for purpose drugs on children and adolescents to halt pubertal development.
Rules on the use of drugs are very strict in the UK - look at how often people are unable to access specific drugs as they have yet to be fully tested / authorised. Meanwhile children and adolescents are encouraged by Trans organisations to access 'off label' drugs, they are told that they are safe and the effects reversible - but THIS IS NOT TRUE. This IS medical experimentation on children and if doctors did this to children for any other reason the Press would be running covert investigations with headlines of "SCANDAL' .
But because these children are believed to be transgender, the normal safeguarding and ethical medical practice doesn't apply - apparently.

placemats · 21/07/2018 12:34

I'm reminded of this:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/20/two-boys-given-10-and-12-years-for-columbine-style-attack-plot-yorkshire

'In the diary , Wyllie wrote he would “lay low” in Catterick before murdering his former girlfriend’s parents and stealing her father’s guns.

When the girl’s parents stopped contact between the pair because of his “malign influence”, he went to her house dressed like Eric Harris and wearing a T-shirt daubed with a threat to her parents.

He fled carrying a large knife that was later found with the word “love” written on the blade. The teenager was cleared of one count of aggravated burglary but convicted of unlawful wounding after carving his name into his then girlfriend’s lower back.'

His 'former girlfriend' a young woman of 14 said she left him because he became controlling and scared her.

R0wantrees · 21/07/2018 12:12

So, in short, we are talking about three main safeguarding failures in trans lobby guidance to schools and other bodies dealing with gender-questioning children:

Additionally in context of GRA, calls to assert human rights to identify gender under 18.
This may have wider implications in the future eg Gillick etc

Mermaids are running a campaign #IknowwhoIam
twitter.com/mermaids_gender?lang=en&lang=en

www.facebook.com/192046384225479/posts/1742378435858925/

This runs in parallel to Ireland, reported this week:
'The Government is today expected to agree to remove the restriction on children under 16 changing their gender.

Minister for Social Protection Regina Doherty will bring a review of the 2015 Gender Recognition Act to Cabinet today, which recommends a number of changes to the current legislation.

The review report, written by Moninne Griffith, executive director of BeLonG To, proposes a move away from the present legalistic system to an administrative process.

Under the existing legislation, children under the age of 16 are currently prohibited from accessing gender recognition, while teenagers aged 16-17 must go through a medical and psychiatric process before changing.

The report recommends that all children under the age of 18 should be allowed to change their gender if they have consent from both parents"

www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/restrictions-on-children-changing-their-gender-to-be-lifted-1.3568384

OldCrone · 21/07/2018 12:06

I think Wales has similar.

In Wales, the Welsh Government recommends using Transgender Guidance for Wrexham Schools 2015. This document contains this statement:

School staff should not disclose information that may reveal a child or young person’s transgender status or gender nonconforming presentation to others, including parents, carers and other members of the school community unless legally required to do so or because the child or young person has asked them to do so.

Welsh government document recommending the Wrexham Schools guidance:
gov.wales/docs/dsjlg/publications/equality/160314-transgender-action-plan-en.pdf

Tinycitrus · 21/07/2018 11:45

Thank you for linking to that safeguarding jimmy saville thread. I hadn’t seen it.

This is what leapt out at me:

Did we as a society learn nothing from Saville & the multitude of other abuse scandals that women and children/girls should be listened to, that celebrities voices help hide abusers, that telling girls to keep secrets from their parents about the presence of penises in their bedrooms and changing rooms and showing them they will be blamed and abused if they transgress and tell someone creates an environment where abuse can flourish.

Yes, yes, yes.

Whattheactualfuckmate · 21/07/2018 11:43

upstart I agree, I really feel there is a big part of the picture that is hidden.

R0wantrees · 21/07/2018 11:42

I think Wales has similar.

There has been a challenge to the Allsorts schools' toolkit in Vale of Glamorgan:

OP from thread below (capitals are from the article):

"In depth article re Vale of Glamorgan's reponse to the guide (worth reading in its entirety):
"MUSLIM PARENTS – AND OTHERS – OBJECT TO VALE COUNCIL’S CONTROVERSIAL “TRANSGENDER TOOLKIT”
(extract)

On April 30th the ruling cabinet of the Vale Council had authorised the formal adoption of the contentious document for implementation in all primary and secondary schools in the Vale. However some critics say the “transgender” issue has no basis in science or fact and is just a trendy fad being pushed and promoted a minority of left-wing “progressives”.

Before it was authorised, the Toolkit was the subject of a “call in” by Cllr Dr Ian Johnson (Plaid Cymru Buttrills, Barry) at the Vale’s Council’s Scrutiny Committee for Learning and Culture. It’s now emerged that at this meeting several letters from concerned local residents were considered – some extracts of which are as follows:- .
(headings only are included below)
OBJECTOR ONE: ‘ MY SON WOULD AVOID P.E. IF HE HAD TO GET UNDRESSED WITH SOMEONE WITH A GIRL’S BODY

OBJECTOR 2: THE ALLSORTS ALLIANCE : ‘THE VALE TOOLKIT ASSUMES PRIORITY SHOULD BE GIVEN TO “TRANSGENDER” PUPILS – RATHER THAN ORDINARY PUPILS’

OBJECTOR 3: ‘IF THIS GOES AHEAD – HOW DO WE SAFEGUARD OUR CHILDREN?

OBJECTOR 4: ‘CHILDREN CANNOT CHANGE SEX’: ‘BOYS AND GIRLS HAVE THE RIGHT TO SINGLE-SEX ACCOMMODATION TO PROTECT THEIR DIGNITY’

OBJECTOR 4: CLLR SIVARUBY SIVAGNANAM: ‘IN A GIRLS’ CHANGING ROOM – IF A GIRL IS UNCOMFORTABLE CHANGING NEXT TO A TRANS BOY – IT’S THE GIRL WHO’LL BE REMOVED- NOT THE BOY.’

concludes:
"The Vale of Glamorgan’s “Safeguarding Officer” has confirmed that a “second edition” of the Vale Transgender Tookit is currently being developed

Now the Trangender Toolkit is on the agenda for the next Vale Council cabinet meeting on Monday next week (June 18th 2018)."

penarthnews.wordpress.com/2018/06/14/muslim-parents-and-others-object-to-vale-councils-controversial-transgender-toolkit/amp/

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3277860-Transgender-Toolkit-criticism-scrutiny

LangCleg · 21/07/2018 11:41

So, in short, we are talking about three main safeguarding failures in trans lobby guidance to schools and other bodies dealing with gender-questioning children:

confidential disclosures
dispensation of multi-agency working
parental alienation

How can anybody not see that this is a recipe for disaster?

Tinycitrus · 21/07/2018 11:35

It looks like the Scottish government is trying to distance itself from this guidance now.

But it remains.

I think Wales has similar.

R0wantrees · 21/07/2018 11:32

THis is an important current thread discussing Safeguarding and systemic failures in child protection and structures intended to protect vulnerable adults:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3301266-Safeguarding-girls-and-protecting-women-post-Jimmy-Saville-metoo

LangCleg · 21/07/2018 11:31

I don't think this is a coincidence.

I don't either.

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