Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are we arguing about the wrong thing?

238 replies

DonkeySkin · 20/07/2018 18:02

Inspired by a Glinner Twitter thread...

In which Graham Linehan stated that Stonewall advisor Alex Drummond was not female, and that anyone who believes otherwise is 'nuts'. He was inundated with people arguing this point, including some accusing him of 'defining women by gender stereotypes'. Someone else tweeted separately in another thread (paraphrasing), 'I had no idea this many people were this crazy.'

But the thing is... they're not crazy, are they? All the people who espouse the ideology of 'gender identity', which that holds that male and female are a feeling-state, rather than a physical fact.

GC feminists often describe such people as 'delusional', but this is ascribing a level of good faith to them that is undeserved. People who are willing to state outright that a male person can be female if he says so aren't delusional. THEY ARE LIARS. They are lying when they say that sex is a social construct, and no one can tell the difference between male and female human beings, and they need to be called on this lie, not indulged with esoteric arguments about linguistics, metaphysics and (inevitably) intersex conditions.

Every single person on that thread arguing with Linehan knows as well as he does that Alex Drummond isn't female. So even arguing the point with them is attributing a weird legitimacy to this lie, by assuming that the people repeating it are making a good-faith argument.

Let me reiterate: nobody actually believes this. Every politician and high-profile person who smugly intones: 'Trans women are women' is perfectly aware that male human beings aren't female human beings. No one is truly confused about the difference between the class of persons who have the potential to impregnate, and the class of persons who have the potential to get pregnant. Nobody has lost their ability to tell the two sexes apart, and there is no way anyone can cognitively trick themselves into perceiving an obviously male-looking person as a woman.

So the disagreement about whether 'trans women are women' isn't a real disagreement. It's a cover for a different argument altogether.

This isn't a dispute between people who believe that male human beings are really female if they say so, and people who don't believe it. Because NOBODY believes that. What we are actually arguing about is whether female human beings should be permitted to define ourselves separately from males.

When people say 'trans women are women', they are not expressing a sincere belief that adult human males can become adult human females. They are asserting men's right to claim membership of the same ontological category as women, on their terms whenever they so wish. Conversely, and just as importantly, they are also denying the right of human females to have a separate ontological category to ourselves.

Feminists should not be reduced to arguing that women and girls exist as a real material thing in the world. Everyone already knows this. We need to stop arguing about whether 'trans women are women' and move the argument onto its true ground, by putting the case that women have the right to define ourselves – in language and in law – separately from males. Female human beings have the right to an ontological category to ourselves, a name to ourselves and the language to define our physical and social reality. And let the trans ideologues and their 'feminist' supporters argue the opposite, in all its stark brazen misogyny, if they wish.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
ErrolTheDragon · 20/07/2018 20:08

that started with trans activists demanding Glinner define 'chair', and when he gave them the dictionary definition, they mocked him and claimed that definition could also mean 'horse'

I suppose at a pinch it could mean a dead horse. But you'd have a hard time flogging it.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 20:08

Sorry - the first one is to Rufus!! I keep forgetting to put posters' names in.🤭

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 20:06

That's right, Eresh - Jonestown as well. People CAN be brainwashed into behaving in all kinds of absolutely outrageous ways. There are some highly skilled manipulators out there, a lot of whom have latched into this ideology for money, fame, validation, power....particularly over women.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 20:02

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Ereshkigal · 20/07/2018 20:02

For example, Charles Manson managed to convince some of his followers he was Jesus!! This two bit career con artist actually did that! He even managed to convince them to kill - at least one of them seemed to believe in Helter Skelter (a race war).

It's terrifying what people can be manipulated into doing for their ideological beliefs. See also Jonestown.

Ereshkigal · 20/07/2018 19:59

Probably best for my blood pressure.

Yes. Especially not at the moment! Thanks

They say that biological males have always been female. No need to change sex. Apparently there are five markers of sex and only one is genetic. So if they have three others they are that sex.

And then there is clownfish bollocks obvs.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 20/07/2018 19:59

I pretty much agree with the OP

But I honestly think that some people are a bit [insert chosen word here] and firmly believe that you can CHANGE into a male/female

So they aren't lying they are just a bit ignorant of biological facts

But in the main...yeah they are lying

UglyCathKidstonBag · 20/07/2018 19:57

DonkeySkin

Makes sense, I’ll seek it out.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 19:52

I always thought some of them DO believe it - that they had been brainwashed by the proselytizing, misogynistic preachers of the cult. Particularly the young ones.

History is cluttered with inadequate men brainwashing people, especially women, in the most ludicrous ideologies. For example, Charles Manson managed to convince some of his followers he was Jesus!! This two bit career con artist actually did that! He even managed to convince them to kill - at least one of them seemed to believe in Helter Skelter (a race war).

So I do believe that brainwashing could be a factor here.

DonkeySkin · 20/07/2018 19:49

UglyCathKidstonBag, I didn't link to the thread as it has the profiles of many non-public figures on it. Tweet was from July 18 and embedded in another thread, that was itself part of a huge, days-long argument about defining 'woman', that started with trans activists demanding Glinner define 'chair', and when he gave them the dictionary definition, they mocked him and claimed that definition could also mean 'horse'. Like I said, these people are not arguing in good faith.

OP posts:
Bowlofbabelfish · 20/07/2018 19:46

I’m not. eresh

Probably best for my blood pressure. I assume people say it there?

Ereshkigal · 20/07/2018 19:37

Nobody, not even the most ardent transactivist will say yes. They just won’t. I’ve had a lot of waffle about gender and various flannel about hormones but nobody is willing to write down that they believe humans can change sex.

Are you on Twitter Babel?

MaybeDoctor · 20/07/2018 19:26

The recognition thing: I have tried to test it out in busy public spaces, ‘identifying’ people I come across. I am in London, so pretty diverse.

I find that my mind instantly says ‘male’/‘female’ almost as quickly as I encounter someone. There is never a gap where I think, ok I need to stop and get more information.

Whereas ethnicity is a much more complex matter...

DonkeySkin · 20/07/2018 19:22

Um, that would be 'many people believe that women who refuse to perform femininity are somehow not 'real women', obviously

OP posts:
MaybeDoctor · 20/07/2018 19:18

If everything of me was obliterated - everything that I had said or done to express my identity was wiped out - but a single hair remained, a scientist would still be able to tell that I was female.

DonkeySkin · 20/07/2018 19:17

I actually think people do believe it

If people really did believe it then men who identify as trans women would be treated just like women. And they obviously aren't.

For what you say to be true, thestars, people would actually have to lose the ability to distinguish between male and female adults. Such that every time we met someone new, we would be genuinely unable to tell what sex the person is without asking their 'gender identity'.

As I stated, there is no way to trick the brain into perceiving a male person as a female person. given that sexual dimorphism is unmistakeable in human mammals, and given that we all know what the two sex categories are predicated on (sexed bodies).

Thus, people who swear that they believe any male who says he is a woman, are not actually perceiving him in the same social category as, to put it bluntly, people with cunts. That's why they prioritise the penis-holding 'woman' and demand that the cunty women subsume their needs to his wants, even though they swear they perceive them no differently.

It seems to me that many people truly do believe that a human being is male or female based on something other than their body.

Now this is absolutely a belief that people hold, in the sense that people believe masculinity and femininity are psychologically and spiritually inextricable from maleness and femaleness. So they do believe that a man who adopts feminine appearance norms has somehow moved away from manhood and is now in a spiritual sense 'woman-like'. (Just as many people believe that women who refuse to perform masculinity are somehow not 'real women'.)

However, this does not mean that they are putting him in the same category as women. They still know what actual females are, and they know he is not it. The 'third gender' cultures found throughout the world attest to that.

'Third gender' people are a) found in patriarchal cultures that have strict sex roles; b) almost always male (unlike men, women in patriarchal societies are rarely permitted to opt out of their 'gender' - very few cultures have 'third gender' categories for females ); and c) not regarded as actual women. They are never referred to as 'women' - they always have a separate name that distinguishes them from women (eg, Hijira in India), and they are treated very differently to women. They are 'third gender' because they are treated and regarded as something different to a man, but they are not actually believed to be socially, culturally and biologically(!) female, which is what the current Western trans dogma insists men can become.

OP posts:
VickyEadie · 20/07/2018 19:15

DonkeySkin

Beautifully put.

FermatsTheorem · 20/07/2018 19:07

Yup. Your first post nails it.

It's all about power and control. Men have the power to set the definitions and thereby exert control over women; women are having what little power and control over their own lives they'd managed to carve out stripped away.

iamawoman · 20/07/2018 19:05

Donkey skin - this is spot on - we need to change the narrative as arguing against transwomen are women is silly as we all know its not true. No one believes it and those that chant it want to be seen as progressive and liberal and not like their parents... shut the chant down. They are lying, lying to themselves, lying to others.. pathetic really. We need to kerp the focus on women and not even mention trans ...

Bowlofbabelfish · 20/07/2018 19:04

I’ve asked many people on here if they believe humans can change sex.

Nobody, not even the most ardent transactivist will say yes. They just won’t. I’ve had a lot of waffle about gender and various flannel about hormones but nobody is willing to write down that they believe humans can change sex.

Nobody. Not a single one of the seriously committed TRA activists we’ve had on here.

I find that astonishing. The entire debate hinges on that belief, and nobody will stand up and say they believe it.

No one. Incredible.

TheresaMayIsATory · 20/07/2018 19:02

Amir used CJ and BJ on two platforms, this is the reaction and why people tell lies.

www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-5973737/Amir-Khan-accused-transphobia-calls-Caitlyn-Jenner-Bruce.html

ClareCAIS · 20/07/2018 19:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Ereshkigal · 20/07/2018 18:54

They do but deep down they know these are male people. They behave in a completely different way to how they behave towards women. So yes I think most people are lying out of kindness, politeness, wish to avoid hassle or fear.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 20/07/2018 18:54

They are asserting men's right to claim membership of the same ontological category as women, on their terms whenever they so wish. Conversely, and just as importantly, they are also denying the right of human females to have a separate ontological category to ourselves.

Feminists should not be reduced to arguing that women and girls exist as a real material thing in the world. Everyone already knows this. We need to stop arguing about whether 'trans women are women' and move the argument onto its true ground, by putting the case that women have the right to define ourselves – in language and in law – separately from males. Female human beings have the right to an ontological category to ourselves, a name to ourselves and the language to define our physical and social reality. And let the trans ideologues and their 'feminist' supporters argue the opposite, in all its stark brazen misogyny, if they wish.

YY it's never a winning strategy to play the narcissists in the game, pitch and rules they have set - it ends in deep warrens of rabbit holes and gets us nowhere. Better to keep to the truth despite the word policing on here and elsewhere.

Women have the right to define who they are as a category of humans, who belongs in their category and who doesn't.

I am a woman. I know a woman when I see one. And they aren't men.

Stop mansplaining womanhood to me.

Swipe left for the next trending thread