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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are we arguing about the wrong thing?

238 replies

DonkeySkin · 20/07/2018 18:02

Inspired by a Glinner Twitter thread...

In which Graham Linehan stated that Stonewall advisor Alex Drummond was not female, and that anyone who believes otherwise is 'nuts'. He was inundated with people arguing this point, including some accusing him of 'defining women by gender stereotypes'. Someone else tweeted separately in another thread (paraphrasing), 'I had no idea this many people were this crazy.'

But the thing is... they're not crazy, are they? All the people who espouse the ideology of 'gender identity', which that holds that male and female are a feeling-state, rather than a physical fact.

GC feminists often describe such people as 'delusional', but this is ascribing a level of good faith to them that is undeserved. People who are willing to state outright that a male person can be female if he says so aren't delusional. THEY ARE LIARS. They are lying when they say that sex is a social construct, and no one can tell the difference between male and female human beings, and they need to be called on this lie, not indulged with esoteric arguments about linguistics, metaphysics and (inevitably) intersex conditions.

Every single person on that thread arguing with Linehan knows as well as he does that Alex Drummond isn't female. So even arguing the point with them is attributing a weird legitimacy to this lie, by assuming that the people repeating it are making a good-faith argument.

Let me reiterate: nobody actually believes this. Every politician and high-profile person who smugly intones: 'Trans women are women' is perfectly aware that male human beings aren't female human beings. No one is truly confused about the difference between the class of persons who have the potential to impregnate, and the class of persons who have the potential to get pregnant. Nobody has lost their ability to tell the two sexes apart, and there is no way anyone can cognitively trick themselves into perceiving an obviously male-looking person as a woman.

So the disagreement about whether 'trans women are women' isn't a real disagreement. It's a cover for a different argument altogether.

This isn't a dispute between people who believe that male human beings are really female if they say so, and people who don't believe it. Because NOBODY believes that. What we are actually arguing about is whether female human beings should be permitted to define ourselves separately from males.

When people say 'trans women are women', they are not expressing a sincere belief that adult human males can become adult human females. They are asserting men's right to claim membership of the same ontological category as women, on their terms whenever they so wish. Conversely, and just as importantly, they are also denying the right of human females to have a separate ontological category to ourselves.

Feminists should not be reduced to arguing that women and girls exist as a real material thing in the world. Everyone already knows this. We need to stop arguing about whether 'trans women are women' and move the argument onto its true ground, by putting the case that women have the right to define ourselves – in language and in law – separately from males. Female human beings have the right to an ontological category to ourselves, a name to ourselves and the language to define our physical and social reality. And let the trans ideologues and their 'feminist' supporters argue the opposite, in all its stark brazen misogyny, if they wish.

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seafret · 20/07/2018 22:33

donkey so we give up on the word woman and fight for what, female instead?

Because the problem is that some people want to be women/female/ whatever we name oursleves even if we called ourselves trolls, htey would (probably) want that. Whilst also saying look at how silly some owmen are for demeaning themsleves and look how much better at womaning we are.

Ereshkigal · 20/07/2018 22:20

conversations I've had with slightly woke friends who just want to be nice and inclusive, often boil down to them not understanding the significance of changing the definition of the word 'woman'.

YY but I don't think they actually really believe that they are women, I think as you say they think it doesn't cost anything to include them.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 22:18

AND love of feminism. Feminism is my friend.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 22:17

😂 Rufus I hate to disappoint...I can't swim!! I was always in detention at school for skiving PE; so much so that eventually I was put in with the boys. So when we went to the pool I just cowered in the corner.

🤔I wonder if that was the stirrings of my life long learning of feminism?

DonkeySkin · 20/07/2018 22:17

Obviously there is a lot of doublethink going on - it's not all cynical mendacity (although there's a fair bit of that too).

But I maintain my original position: when people claim to believe that male human beings are the same in material reality as female human beings, they are lying. Whether they realise it or not.

Hence my suggestion that we move on from arguing whether 'trans women are women'. And focus on the right for female human beings to define ourselves separately from males, in language and in law.

OP posts:
Iused2BanOptimist · 20/07/2018 22:10

Seafret YY

BeUpStanding · 20/07/2018 22:10

Before being diverted by a desperate attempt to pull Human back from the void, I was going to say what a fantastic OP.

I do agree with Certain though, that:
I think when they say TWAW they mean, 'the definition of women has changed you poor fool!! Did no-one tell you?' So in that sense they both believe and don't believe.

The fulcrum of this whole debate is TWAW. The conversations I've had with slightly woke friends who just want to be nice and inclusive, often boil down to them not understanding the significance of changing the definition of the word 'woman'.

I hate to say it but there's a correlation with class as well. It's harder for people with privilege to see or understand how women and girls are vulnerable. They think we've evolved past all that.

The cognitive dissonance involved in thinking everything's fine blows my tiny fricking mind when everyone know about #metoo, Jimmy Saville, Rotherham, Telford, the explosion of child porn, care home abuse scandals, Catholic church abuse scandals, etc etc etc.

And for the millionth bloody time, I am not saying that trans people are more likely to do any of these things... But the changes they want to make in law will make it even easier for those who are predators to prey on vulnerable women and children.

Iused2BanOptimist · 20/07/2018 22:09

This reply has been deleted

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Rufustheyawningreindeer · 20/07/2018 22:09

fermats

I am not diving into any rifts

Im sure i saw lastgirls hand up though

She'd be much better at rift diving if you ask me

seafret · 20/07/2018 22:01

great thread :)

All I have to say is that perhaps it is the case that we have a mix of believers, delusionals, the mass-delusional brainwashed sheeples, hidden agenda drivers, polite and kinds (and their cousins poilte and afraid while backing away from the crazy people),, the battered and weakned, the 'I'm not going to be the odd one outs', the what's in it for Me's, the venegful 'well you wanted equality' wankers, the internalised misogynists and the outright 'so come on and fight me I dare you' liars and manipulators.

The fact that they are all happen to converge on this issue is a big problem, but I do not believe they are all one and the same. People s a group are complex.

AvtarRamKaur · 20/07/2018 22:00

It's classic doublethink, isn't it?

I think some of them have delved so deep into the rabbit hole that it would require a mining excavator to get them back into the real world, and nobody likes to eat that much crow. So they keep digging instead, and pull other people down with them to wallow in the mud.

I think some of them are liars, yes, but I think a lot more of them are True Believers, which worries me more.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 21:54

Brace yourself, Human!😂🤯

BeUpStanding · 20/07/2018 21:49

Human Nooooooooo!

FermatsTheorem · 20/07/2018 21:46

It's like the scene at the end of the new Ghostbusters - diving into the rift to save Melissa McCarthy!

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 20/07/2018 21:45

Its too late certain

We could try yelling

HUMAN COME BACK, KEEP AWAY FROM ADVANCED SEARCH...COME BACK INTO THE LIGHT!!!!

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 20/07/2018 21:42

Someone save Human!!

FermatsTheorem · 20/07/2018 21:41

"I think when they say TWAW they mean, 'the definition of women has changed you poor fool!! Did no-one tell you?' So in that sense they both believe and don't believe.

Yes, that's exactly what is going on. The argument seems to go "po-mo word salad, 'woman' is a social construct, we're redefining to mean someone who performs femininity/someone who does the shit work of changing nappies and looking after elderly relatives" (because while we want the women we pay attention to to look glamorous, we also need the old fashioned cunty kind to keep doing the shit work), followed by "faux-science word salad, sex is now to be understood as a social construct, intersex blah, clownfish blah, hormone washes blah... complete first year philosophy student misunderstanding of Hume on natural kinds, blah... bit of Foucault who we didn't understand either, maybe a dash of Wittgenstein who we definitely didn't understand, blah, blah blah..."

Gncq · 20/07/2018 21:40

Don't do it human your health will suffer..

Humandignity · 20/07/2018 21:25

LastGirl I will have to check who snappity is, since I returned to mumsnet only recently after a looong break. (Goes over to search function)

Italiangreyhound · 20/07/2018 21:21

I agree with @CertainHalfDesertedStreets

"I think when they say TWAW they mean, 'the definition of women has changed you poor fool!! Did no-one tell you?' So in that sense they both believe and don't believe.

And we're back to Schroedinger's Woman..."

And because they are so keen to be seen as women not trans women they are attempting to erase both women and trans women.

They do not seem to have much interest in trans men!

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 21:15

Human, I think Snappity said something along those lines...that she believed people changed sex once hormones were affected. God love her!

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 21:13

Scipio - you are so kind, as are all the women who showed compassion. Compassion is always a good thing. It's lovely.

I am a cynical person and I think I KNEW men, once given an inch, would take a mile and then some.

Humandignity · 20/07/2018 21:12

And then there are those who actually believe that surgery and hormone treatments do change the biological sex. Because, after all, sex is not only defined by chromosomes, but also hormone levels and gonads. So, if you make the surgical and hormonal changes, you‘ve actually changed your sex. People really believe that.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 21:10

I used to wish I was as kind as the women who used preferred pronouns, but I could never bring myself to do that - to lie. I have a serious issue with lying...it is like my mouth can not speak words that aren't truth. I wondered if I was unkind as a person. 🤔

But now I see I was right.

ScipioAfricanus · 20/07/2018 21:06

Kindness - yes. I think kindness has got us into a lot of deep water here. It’s a kindness, for me, to call a man ‘she’ because he has decided that he’s a ‘woman’. The same way I would kindly call a toddler ‘Superman’ or talk about long dead family relatives as if alive with a relative who has Alzheimer’s. I don’t think most people who consider themselves allies of trans people think they are being anything other than kind.

And at some point, this kindness wasn’t enough. That’s when I realised how unkind the people we’d been being kind to were to women, unkind enough to demand our identity as theirs at the expense of our own (‘cis’).

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