Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are we arguing about the wrong thing?

238 replies

DonkeySkin · 20/07/2018 18:02

Inspired by a Glinner Twitter thread...

In which Graham Linehan stated that Stonewall advisor Alex Drummond was not female, and that anyone who believes otherwise is 'nuts'. He was inundated with people arguing this point, including some accusing him of 'defining women by gender stereotypes'. Someone else tweeted separately in another thread (paraphrasing), 'I had no idea this many people were this crazy.'

But the thing is... they're not crazy, are they? All the people who espouse the ideology of 'gender identity', which that holds that male and female are a feeling-state, rather than a physical fact.

GC feminists often describe such people as 'delusional', but this is ascribing a level of good faith to them that is undeserved. People who are willing to state outright that a male person can be female if he says so aren't delusional. THEY ARE LIARS. They are lying when they say that sex is a social construct, and no one can tell the difference between male and female human beings, and they need to be called on this lie, not indulged with esoteric arguments about linguistics, metaphysics and (inevitably) intersex conditions.

Every single person on that thread arguing with Linehan knows as well as he does that Alex Drummond isn't female. So even arguing the point with them is attributing a weird legitimacy to this lie, by assuming that the people repeating it are making a good-faith argument.

Let me reiterate: nobody actually believes this. Every politician and high-profile person who smugly intones: 'Trans women are women' is perfectly aware that male human beings aren't female human beings. No one is truly confused about the difference between the class of persons who have the potential to impregnate, and the class of persons who have the potential to get pregnant. Nobody has lost their ability to tell the two sexes apart, and there is no way anyone can cognitively trick themselves into perceiving an obviously male-looking person as a woman.

So the disagreement about whether 'trans women are women' isn't a real disagreement. It's a cover for a different argument altogether.

This isn't a dispute between people who believe that male human beings are really female if they say so, and people who don't believe it. Because NOBODY believes that. What we are actually arguing about is whether female human beings should be permitted to define ourselves separately from males.

When people say 'trans women are women', they are not expressing a sincere belief that adult human males can become adult human females. They are asserting men's right to claim membership of the same ontological category as women, on their terms whenever they so wish. Conversely, and just as importantly, they are also denying the right of human females to have a separate ontological category to ourselves.

Feminists should not be reduced to arguing that women and girls exist as a real material thing in the world. Everyone already knows this. We need to stop arguing about whether 'trans women are women' and move the argument onto its true ground, by putting the case that women have the right to define ourselves – in language and in law – separately from males. Female human beings have the right to an ontological category to ourselves, a name to ourselves and the language to define our physical and social reality. And let the trans ideologues and their 'feminist' supporters argue the opposite, in all its stark brazen misogyny, if they wish.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
SlothSlothSloth · 21/07/2018 12:18

I think some older feminists still think of transwomen as the gentle fey boys of their youth - refugees from toxic masculinity

Yes definitely but I would add that this perception is not limited to older feminists. This is definitely what the vast majority of the public thinks - that trans women are all former femme gay men who have had surgery and who usually pass reasonably well.

I told a friend the other day that there are trans women now who don’t have surgery or even necessarily any treatment, who were straight men before they transitioned and now identify as lesbians, and she literally didn’t believe me. She just laughed and accused me of being ridiculous.

pfttt · 21/07/2018 12:14

Wonderful post, Human.

I just wanted to add a link to a twitter post that suddenly made things very clear for me:

twitter.com/RadfemJana/status/1019981180110819328

"If you buy into "gender identity" and believe people are oppressed because of gender and not sex you spit in the faces of all the women who have been forced into child marriages, who have been brutalized because of FGM and women who have aborted because the fetus was female."

I think the last point, especially, hit me. Foetuses and babies don't have a 'gender identity'. They don't have any kind of identity at all. They can't 'think'. Yet millions of female foetuses are aborted and even girl babies murdered/left to die BECAUSE OF THEIR BIOLOGICAL SEX.

It is our biological sex that has required women/girls to be disadvantaged/discriminated against, NOT our identity. Transpeople can identify as chickens for all I care, it has zero relevance to the fact the women are discriminated against because of our biology and need extra support to deal with that discrimination.

Women have been fighting against discrimination based on our female biology for thousands of years and we will keep fighting.

Ereshkigal · 21/07/2018 11:53

I've been called a bigot by three women all of whom regard themselves as feminists but I can't be a feminist in their eyes because I take the same view as you Donkey and many others here.

It's good to see you here. I used to be on another forum I'm pretty sure you were on.

Ereshkigal · 21/07/2018 11:52

I think some older feminists still think of transwomen as the gentle fey boys of their youth - refugees from toxic masculinity. They are not aware that we are now dealing not with refugees but with invaders and colonisers.

Unfortunately I think there are also women, who call themselves feminists, who value actual women so little and men so highly that they are somehow flattered that men are willing to call themselves women.

Agree with all of that.

Oscarino · 21/07/2018 11:42

As someone who's been a feminist since I read The Female Eunuch aged 16 I find this endorsement of TRAs by so-called feminists very troubling. Aren't they, in fact, endorsing men's rights over women's?

I think some older feminists still think of transwomen as the gentle fey boys of their youth - refugees from toxic masculinity. They are not aware that we are now dealing not with refugees but with invaders and colonisers.

Unfortunately I think there are also women, who call themselves feminists, who value actual women so little and men so highly that they are somehow flattered that men are willing to call themselves women.

OldCrone · 21/07/2018 11:38

Ultimately, politicians need to be challenged on the absurdity of extinguishing a material category ('sex') and replacing it with a subjective belief ('gender identity').

This is what is missing from so many of the discussions about this issue elsewhere. Sex is real and objective, and protections and rights have been based around the differences in our sexed bodies. 'Gender identity' is a belief similar to religious belief, and should be protected in the same way, but it makes no sense to separate facilities on the basis of 'gender identity', which even the proponents of the ideology recognise is just in their heads.

The GRA reform is designed to do just as you say, and effectively replace the protected characteristic of sex in the Equality Act with 'gender identity'. If any man can declare himself to be a woman, and be legally recognised as a woman, there will no longer be any protections for women and girls.

Mxyzptlk · 21/07/2018 11:25

Long ago, in an early edition of the magazine Spare Rib, a reader's letter appeared seeking support for an organisation called P.I.E.

I didn't really understand the letter and forgot about it until the next issue, where another reader's letter made clear what exactly this was about and that the organisation was the Paedophile Information Exchange.

This is a similar situation, involving obfuscation and doublespeak to confuse the well-meaning, but it has gone much much further.

Lawlsie1976 · 21/07/2018 11:04

Thank you for that wonderful post DonkeySkin.

I've been called a bigot by three women all of whom regard themselves as feminists but I can't be a feminist in their eyes because I take the same view as you Donkey and many others here.

I defend women's rights and especially gay women's rights.

As someone who's been a feminist since I read The Female Eunuch aged 16 I find this endorsement of TRAs by so-called feminists very troubling. Aren't they, in fact, endorsing men's rights over women's?

WrongOnTheInternet · 21/07/2018 10:40

I'm not on here every day and have only now seen this. The op is the clearest statement on transactivist ideology I have seen so far. Thank goodness some people can think, and thank you so much for posting it (following the spirit of the recent 'lurkers unite' thread).

ScipioAfricanus · 21/07/2018 10:12

if you feel unhappy, go ahead and change yourself, but the socio-economic system that might actually be the original source of many of your problems won‘t change.

Oh my goodness, yes! I couldn’t work out why sex rather than gender was being defined as fluid or changeable and why the ‘easier’ option of eradicating gender wasn’t being used. But this makes perfect, awful sense.

ChattyLion · 21/07/2018 09:34

Great post Human

Humandignity · 21/07/2018 09:33

Oh dear, I went to check who snappity was, because Lastgirl mentioned her... And I was already deep into the Search function to hear the warning calls from others..., sorry...
Ok, there are people we will probably never be able to convince, because they need to hold on to their belief system for their own personal reasons.

But why do people not understand that people who hate their bodies, who dissociate themselves from their own bodies to the extent that they want to cut parts of it off and mould it to their imagination (like those who want to chop off one of their legs - sorry I don‘t remember who mentioned it further above) do, indeed, need our kindness and empathy. But a real kindness to see them as the troubled persons who need help to find a way to either accept themselves in their bodies, or (where the first is not possible) be allowed to make the desired changes to enable them to live their lives, but all the while being clear that this only addresses the symptoms of an underlying problem.

I think that the transgender-solution is so widely accepted, because it‘s easier to make changes on the level of individual gender status than tackle the big structural changes to address sex inequalities and sexism that is ingrained in so many institutions and processes. I.e. if you feel unhappy, go ahead and change yourself, but the socio-economic system that might actually be the original source of many of your problems won‘t change.

ErrolTheDragon · 21/07/2018 09:21

Re 'delusional' - in the context of this discussion, 'deluded' is probably nearly always more accurate.

MsMcWoodle · 21/07/2018 09:11

Another thanks for this thread. Reading this has been eye-opening and has changed the way I will act in future.
I see that someone has already put a link to it on Twitter.

Clinicalwaste · 21/07/2018 09:09

Thank you so much for this thread op. It is one of the best and most educational things I have ever seen around this debate. You get the heart of the matter. Thank you so much for this crystal clear, devastatingly clear analysis. This needs to be shared far and wide. This is one to bookmark for the completion of the GRA documentation.

ChattyLion · 21/07/2018 08:57

Thank you for this thread OP and everyone contributing. I really appreciate the links and sources for further reading. You’re passing on tools to all of us. Flowers

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 21/07/2018 08:56

It was because the male PE teacher was scary so was meant to control me better. I suppose it worked because I did end up attending.

Mxyzptlk · 21/07/2018 08:50

I was always in detention at school for skiving PE; so much so that eventually I was put in with the boys.

How was that supposed to help?? Confused

BeUpStanding · 21/07/2018 08:48

Actually on re-reading that is one of your more legible posts... I am just so used to random full stops littering your comments Grin

BeUpStanding · 21/07/2018 08:45

Bespin

I really wish you'd spend just a few moments to sort out the punctuation in your comments before posting. You have a glitchy phone, I understand (I've been there too), but it really doesn't take much to put in a bit of extra effort and ensure your message is accessible and legible. It's a courtesy to the many many people reading, and would certainly help me to understand better the points you are making.

Bespin · 21/07/2018 08:32

Iused2BanOptimist the one thing I have always tried to make clear to young trans people is that we need to be very clear to. medical. professionals that we are trans so that they can treat us effectively, though unfortunately this can lead to trans broken. leg syndrome or now in the states people having the right not to treat you. we need to remove these things to make sure examples. like the one you gave don't happen.

Iused2BanOptimist · 21/07/2018 08:23

Flourella. I had annual updating training this week and I learnt of a new policy regarding emergency blood transfusions. Since forever the universal donor in emergency has been O Neg . However ONeg is in short supply (I've noticed some adverts for donors if you are ONeg) so it has been decided that O POS is perfectly safe to give except to women of childbearing age. However our trust has decided to err on the side of safety and say that OPos can be given in emergency to men, and men only.

I daresay it will be a very rare occurrence but this does leave open the possibility of a young, passing, trans male being given O POS in extremis. So if his/her reproductive possibilities haven't been trashed by T then receiving an O POS blood transfusion will add to future complications due to the possibility of Rhesus incompatibility.

I know it's rare occurrences and an emergency is just that etc but it's another example of how the NHS needs to be very careful when talking about treating people according to their preferred gender. Although mostly when they refer to this I assume it is meaning courtesy and polite behaviours as you say.

Bowlofbabelfish · 21/07/2018 08:10

Delusional has a specific meaning. I generally agree on not using medical slurs - they shouldn’t be used to denigrate anyone. However to point out that a belief is delusions is sometimes helpful and is different to calling a person mad/crazy.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 21/07/2018 07:59

Or maybe between what is odd and what is the result of something unhealthy?

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 21/07/2018 07:57

Sidetrack, but I hate mental health related slurs like crazy, delusional, nuts being used in political debate, really bugs me.

I do generally agree. But do we not also need a word for something that is so far outside the way that the vast majority of people view the world? A friend of mine who is a therapist says that 'mad' is actually a very useful word because it distinguishes between what is perhaps odd but actually reasonable and what is really not?

Swipe left for the next trending thread