Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are we arguing about the wrong thing?

238 replies

DonkeySkin · 20/07/2018 18:02

Inspired by a Glinner Twitter thread...

In which Graham Linehan stated that Stonewall advisor Alex Drummond was not female, and that anyone who believes otherwise is 'nuts'. He was inundated with people arguing this point, including some accusing him of 'defining women by gender stereotypes'. Someone else tweeted separately in another thread (paraphrasing), 'I had no idea this many people were this crazy.'

But the thing is... they're not crazy, are they? All the people who espouse the ideology of 'gender identity', which that holds that male and female are a feeling-state, rather than a physical fact.

GC feminists often describe such people as 'delusional', but this is ascribing a level of good faith to them that is undeserved. People who are willing to state outright that a male person can be female if he says so aren't delusional. THEY ARE LIARS. They are lying when they say that sex is a social construct, and no one can tell the difference between male and female human beings, and they need to be called on this lie, not indulged with esoteric arguments about linguistics, metaphysics and (inevitably) intersex conditions.

Every single person on that thread arguing with Linehan knows as well as he does that Alex Drummond isn't female. So even arguing the point with them is attributing a weird legitimacy to this lie, by assuming that the people repeating it are making a good-faith argument.

Let me reiterate: nobody actually believes this. Every politician and high-profile person who smugly intones: 'Trans women are women' is perfectly aware that male human beings aren't female human beings. No one is truly confused about the difference between the class of persons who have the potential to impregnate, and the class of persons who have the potential to get pregnant. Nobody has lost their ability to tell the two sexes apart, and there is no way anyone can cognitively trick themselves into perceiving an obviously male-looking person as a woman.

So the disagreement about whether 'trans women are women' isn't a real disagreement. It's a cover for a different argument altogether.

This isn't a dispute between people who believe that male human beings are really female if they say so, and people who don't believe it. Because NOBODY believes that. What we are actually arguing about is whether female human beings should be permitted to define ourselves separately from males.

When people say 'trans women are women', they are not expressing a sincere belief that adult human males can become adult human females. They are asserting men's right to claim membership of the same ontological category as women, on their terms whenever they so wish. Conversely, and just as importantly, they are also denying the right of human females to have a separate ontological category to ourselves.

Feminists should not be reduced to arguing that women and girls exist as a real material thing in the world. Everyone already knows this. We need to stop arguing about whether 'trans women are women' and move the argument onto its true ground, by putting the case that women have the right to define ourselves – in language and in law – separately from males. Female human beings have the right to an ontological category to ourselves, a name to ourselves and the language to define our physical and social reality. And let the trans ideologues and their 'feminist' supporters argue the opposite, in all its stark brazen misogyny, if they wish.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
flourella · 20/07/2018 18:42

I wish I had your confidence that all these people are liars and know that they are lying. It seems to me that many people truly do believe that a human being is male or female based on something other than their body. I don't understand how they've become convinced of this, but I think they mean it.

HotRocker · 20/07/2018 18:32

Phalia to confirm 2D + 69 = L proves that they are lying, and they know it.

Melamin · 20/07/2018 18:31

Tangled webs and all that Wink

ballsballsballs · 20/07/2018 18:28

Amazing post.

NotTerfNorCis · 20/07/2018 18:25

Great post. I've often noticed the astonishing levels of dishonesty coming from TRAs, who must be fully aware that they're lying. Perhaps the one huge lie opens the door to all the others.

Jamieandwordswo · 20/07/2018 18:24

I actually thought everyone knew dogs don’t woof, cows don’t moo etc.

UglyCathKidstonBag · 20/07/2018 18:24

They are lying when they say that sex is a social construct, and no one can tell the difference between male and female human beings, and they need to be called on this lie, not indulged with esoteric arguments about linguistics, metaphysics and (inevitably) intersex conditions.

This all the way. They are out and out liars.
It’s also a wonder they haven’t yet launched a leagal claim against their secondary school for giving them false information in biology lessons, if they are so sold on it.

Do you have a link to the Twitter thread you are referring to?

DonkeySkin · 20/07/2018 18:22

You didn't mention women who want to be men, is that OK with you?

Vicky1990, it doesn't matter whether I'm 'OK' with that or not. Human beings can't change sex. My approval or otherwise doesn't change that.

OP posts:
thestarsatnight · 20/07/2018 18:20

I actually think people do believe it. Some just because they haven't thought about and so just trot out the line that they they think left thinking people like they some have. But others I think really do believe it. We don't see the world as it is - we see it as we think it is.

I was at a pond with ducks once. There was a toddler there. Mum and Dad asked him what noise ducks make. He kinda went 'aarp, aarp' and made the noise ducks make. Mum and Dad laughed at him and said ' No no, ducks go quack quack'. the toddler looked really confused. What his parents told him wasn't matching the noise the ducks had made. But then I realised, I HAD HEARD THE DUCKS GOING QUACK QUACK TOO. AND THEY DON'T.

HotRocker · 20/07/2018 18:20

The whole thing is bonkers. I can’t see, but as soon as someone opens their mouth, to even cough or clear their throat, in 99.9% of cases I can tell if it’s a man or a woman. It’s not like I’m even magic, because everyone can tell, even a baby can distinguish between male and female people.

Vicky1990 · 20/07/2018 18:16

You didn't mention women who want to be men, is that OK with you?.

Jamieandwordswo · 20/07/2018 18:15

To tell the truth in a time of universal deceit is a revolutionary act.

Is that the right saying here?

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 20/07/2018 18:09

Absolutely.

Swipe left for the next trending thread