Page 3 | Could you get on board with this definition of gender identity?

SarahCarer · 2018-07-18T20:45:17+00:00

If sex = biologically male or female and Gender = the sex based role society expects us to perform Gender identity = instinctive complicit performance of a sex based role Not everyone complies instinctively to any sex based role Not everyone complies instinctively to the role normally imposed on their own sex Feminism enlightens us and we can overcome our complicity, and resist.

Pratchet · 18/07/2018 23:02

Which is fine, as long as the feeling remains in the man's head
Exactly. This.

Original poster

SarahCarer · 18/07/2018 23:02

But that veers very close to suggesting that males who transition experience in childhood, as they claim, female socialization, and I refuse to believe that, because the external world doesn't regard them as female I would say that some trans women make it very clear that they have not experienced female socialisation. Some parody female behaviours. But some trans women and also some gay men do seem to exhibit traits consistent with female socialisation and i would say that whilst society didn't impose that on them when they were young they may have imposed it on themselves yes.
I apologise for the use of the word complicit. But I don't mean compliant. I think perhaps I mean "co-operate"

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Materialist · 18/07/2018 22:59

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Jamieandwordswo · 18/07/2018 22:58

Trans people can’t experience gender identity, by your definition, OP.

Your explanation of gender identity requires you feel male and be male, or feel female and be female.

Also, your definition doesn’t mention instinctive learning. It mentions instinctive performance.

Pratchet · 18/07/2018 22:53

Yy fair point but you are still left with 'woman is a feeling in a man's head' - however you describe the feeling

WomanInBoots · 18/07/2018 22:53

I don't think I can get on board with that. Or I don't understand it. I don't know where the lines would be and I might end up being considered a man if my instinctive performance is not womanly enough. I'm not a man. Because the gender identity as defined still relies on the gender which is ascribed by societal expectations as its base? If I instinctively reject "womanly" things does that make me a man?

Surely it all just biology and personality interacting really? With a big dump of socialization on top. I just can't get my head round gender as a thing at all if I'm honest.

Materialist · 18/07/2018 22:53

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Cwenthryth · 18/07/2018 22:53

There’s no personal judgement in ‘very misleading’. It’s my assessment of your proposed definition - not my opinion of you

If you don’t believe gender identity is innate, then I’d avoid a definition stating “gender identity = instinctive anything”, as it could easily translates as “gender identity = innate”.

I agree complicit is very loaded and initially countered that term as well - because I think you mean compliant, not complicit - but then decided to keep posts simple. Now you’ve bought it up, ‘complicit’ means ‘involved with others in an activity that is unlawful or morally wrong‘. I’m sure you didn’t mean that - that would probably be actually transphobic, rather than gender critical! (Although this could be an interesting tangential discussion.... is complicity with gendered stereotypes immoral as it perpetuates patriarchy, discuss)

‘Compliant’ means ‘disposed to agree with others or obey rules, especially to an excessive degree; acquiescent’ - but even when using the intended term here, I think ‘compliant’ is loaded, as it feels as if it implies a conscious choice is made to comply with stereotypes, and I’m not sure there is.

Original poster

SarahCarer · 18/07/2018 22:53

@Jamieandwordswo I have explained the experience here before. I have experienced gender identity. I agree trans people often don't want to explain the experience because you cannot do so without using stereotypes. But if you allow yourself to use stereotypes the experience can quite easily be explained.

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Original poster

SarahCarer · 18/07/2018 22:50

How are you adding anything by stating that learning through imitation is instinctive? It explains why people some people experience conditioning without any sense of internal conflict. It explains why it feels natural to many people and importantly it explains why someone can internalise the other role to the one society expects them to perform. It emphasises the role of the individual in the process without denying the fact that gender is externally imposed and culturally relative.

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Jamieandwordswo · 18/07/2018 22:49

Nobody ever wants to explain the experience though. Been waiting about ten years on these boards for a description of these internal feelings...

Materialist · 18/07/2018 22:48

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Original poster

SarahCarer · 18/07/2018 22:45

*The definition of gender identity isn't relevant to the definition of sex and the legal and cultural primary importance of biological sex." Well true. But the reason the belief in an innate gender identity is one of the twin threats to the above is because the idea resonates with a great many people and not just trans people. I think that decrying it as non existent or religious belief doesn't get us nearly as far as seeking to explain the experience.

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Jamieandwordswo · 18/07/2018 22:44

How are you adding anything by stating that learning through imitation is instinctive?

By applying it to gender identity you’re giving the impression that it is some kind of special case, and more instinctive that any other form of copying.

Imnobody4 · 18/07/2018 22:40

I don't like instinctive either. I can of see what you mean. The potential to learn a language is programmed but the actual language is a result of social , culture. The problem is I don't see gender operating on this level. It is entirely cultural. I don't see any instinct to latch on to this particular aspect of a culture. It is sex that conditions, pushes into roles. I just don't see the need or evidence for a gender identity.

Original poster

SarahCarer · 18/07/2018 22:39

Ok, so you could argue that the process of learning the gendered behaviour is instinctive (possibly - not convinced) but it does not follow that the resulting “gender identity” (conditioned behaviour) is in itself instinctive, so using that term as part of a proposed definition is very misleading.

I think "very misleading" is harsh. I am suggesting that the complicity is instinctive in many children but not all. I did not say that gender identity is innate and emphatically do not accept the idea of an innate gender identity. Now I am uncomfortable with the word complicit because it seems loaded. But if goes beyond copying. Because it includes a natural desire to be the same and to be accepted. And yes @Jamieandwordswo it is becausd humans are usually social animals but that is shorthand for a bigger explanation; not the other way around.

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Pratchet · 18/07/2018 22:38

The definition of gender identity isn't relevant to the definition of sex and the legal and cultural primary importance of biological sex.

Jamieandwordswo · 18/07/2018 22:35

And we don’t just talk biology. We are biological. We’re real. I’m really female 24 hours a day. I’m not a head in a jar.

Jamieandwordswo · 18/07/2018 22:34

Yes, that’s sex roles.

But it remains untrue that the categories themselves are socially imposed. The categories are inevitable - their extent is not.

Original poster

SarahCarer · 18/07/2018 22:32

The categories are real but the categorisation goes far beyond circumstances where the real differences between the categories have any bearing. It is applied every few sentences. Not just when we're talking biology.

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Cwenthryth · 18/07/2018 22:30

Ok, so you could argue that the process of learning the gendered behaviour is instinctive (possibly - not convinced) but it does not follow that the resulting “gender identity” (conditioned behaviour) is in itself instinctive, so using that term as part of a proposed definition is very misleading.

Jamieandwordswo · 18/07/2018 22:28

It’s just a very convoluted way of saying that humans are social animals.

ICJump · 18/07/2018 22:27

I wonder if it’s more like
Gender identity willing performance of gender stereotypes.

Original poster

SarahCarer · 18/07/2018 22:26

Copying a category is instinctive. What that will look like depends on the setting.

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Cwenthryth · 18/07/2018 22:22

From my understanding your using ‘instinctive’ wrongly there, at least from a behavioural point of view - you’re talking about conditioned, ie learned behaviour. Instinctive, or innate behaviour would develop independently of society.