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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Diva editor, responds to 'lesbian rights alliance' article in the times.

361 replies

garam · 17/07/2018 23:29

Another strongly worded restating of support for trans rights....

"A Times article, published today, announces “lesbian fury at Stonewall over ‘trans agenda’”, as if the 135 signatories of an open letter speak for every lesbian in the world.

Sorry, but you're wrong.

Given DIVA’s unequivocal stance on trans issues, I’m sure it goes without saying, but for anyone not quite sure: those 135 signatories do not speak for us, or for the majority of cisgender lesbians.

The letter, from an organisation calling themselves the Lesbian Rights Alliance, accuses Stonewall of erasing lesbians and says: “Stonewall has rarely represented our interests. Now in your single-minded policy to promote the trans political and ideological agenda you not only fail to represent us but you actually promote lesbian invisibility – and lesbian erasure.”

I do agree that lesbians are underrepresented in the LGBT community. But it's worse for bisexual people, and even more so for trans people who are also lesbian or bisexual. That's why it's so important that a magazine like DIVA exists, and that an organisation like Stonewall is women-led and promotes bi and trans inclusion. It's the likes of DIVA and Stonewall who are making us more visible.

In fact, I'd go further. It is not Stonewall – or any other LGBT organisation – erasing lesbian identities, but these so-called feminists who, by peddling hateful and transphobic rhetoric, make people like me not want to use the word lesbian to describe myself because I don’t want to be associated with their views. What a sad state of affairs.

The letter continues: “We urge you to stop claiming to represent us and leave the L out.”

Take your own advice, LRA, and stop claiming to represent lesbians. You do not speak for me, for DIVA, or for the majority of our community.

As I’ve said before, and I’ll say again, trans women do not erase lesbians. I believe we are enriched by trans friends and lovers, parents, children, colleagues and siblings.

Groups like the LRA would have you believe that it’s “them versus us”. It’s not. They are us. We’re one and the same, and we can’t let divisive, hateful and misguided people drive a wedge between us.

DIVA publisher Linda Riley agrees with me. She says: “It seems ironic to me to complain about a lack of lesbian visibility while, at the same time, asking the L to be removed from LGBT.

“We are stronger as a community and 135 lesbians should not be able to decide what a whole community should believe.”"

OP posts:
FloralBunting · 18/07/2018 20:22

All points go to AAK at this juncture.Grin

LangCleg · 18/07/2018 20:22

2 dick 69 = lesbian sex

Yes or no?

STOP MAKING ME LAUGH!

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 18/07/2018 20:20

Come on garam

2 dick 69 = lesbian sex

Yes or no?

AngryAttackKittens · 18/07/2018 20:18

(I suspect in this case they really wanted to say "yes those are lesbians if that's how they identify" but had a pause for thought and realized how barmy that would look, thus the attempt at deflection.)

AngryAttackKittens · 18/07/2018 20:17

Maybe garam's account isn't old enough to be able to comment on sex threads?

StepBackNow · 18/07/2018 20:14

Just when you think it couldn't get even more stupid. Here we are. Madness.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 18/07/2018 20:11

Transpuritanical - or transpermissive - can't remember when words don't actually mean something. ..

BeyondRadicalisationPortal · 18/07/2018 20:08

Puritanical?! Confused

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 18/07/2018 20:01

How flat-out weird to be obsessed by this stuff.
I mean, who even thinks like this, what kind of person arrives at this kind of thought exercise, does this stuff keep you awake at night?

Err yeah. So obsessed with genitals huh?

Actually we're all being transprudes and you are being transprurient garam

AngryAttackKittens · 18/07/2018 20:01

"I'm a musician, even though I don't play an instrument or sing and I have terrible rhythm and am tone-deaf" = "I'm not a musician"

Lots of those about, sadly. Seem to have replaced transpoets as the go-to for "would like to be creative but sadly is not".

OlennasWimple · 18/07/2018 20:00

For a forum thats generally puritanical

Ah, I see where you've gone wrong OP.

AngryAttackKittens · 18/07/2018 19:59

Nobody here would ever have thought of such a thing by themselves, I'm sure, but unfortunately TRAs do insist on posting about it all over the internet.

(Cute attempt at a reversal btw but not very well executed, I give it 2/10.)

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 18/07/2018 19:59

two people with penises in a parked car, giving each other blow jobs. Is that lesbian sex if both parties say it is?

Of course it is. Transcunnilingus - all the rage these days.

OlennasWimple · 18/07/2018 19:59

Someone saying that they are something doesn't automatically make them that thing, particularly if they act in a way which is inconsistent with the fundamentals of the thing that they say that they are

"I'm a vegetarian apart from bacon" = "I'm not a vegetarian"

"I'm a Catholic but I don't believe in God" = "I'm not a Catholic"

"I'm a fashionista but I don't really care much for clothes and make up" = "I'm not a fashionista"

"I'm a musician, even though I don't play an instrument or sing and I have terrible rhythm and am tone-deaf" = "I'm not a musician"

"I'm a lesbian but I happily involve a penis in my sexual activities" = "I'm not a lesbian"

garam · 18/07/2018 19:58

So (since this was a scenario I actually read about), two people with penises in a parked car, giving each other blow jobs. Is that lesbian sex if both parties say it is?

How flat-out weird to be obsessed by this stuff.
I mean, who even thinks like this, what kind of person arrives at this kind of thought exercise, does this stuff keep you awake at night?

For a forum thats generally puritanical, some people seem to have a lot of sexual hang-ups.

OP posts:
WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 18/07/2018 19:58

she is whatever sexuality she defines herself, and neither myself nor you have any input on that.

Exactly, so she can identify as a gay man.

Transwords don't have to mean anything. It's so freeing.

UglyCathKidstonBag · 18/07/2018 19:56

Nope, and she is whatever sexuality she defines herself, and neither myself nor you have any input on that.

But I didn’t identify into my sexuality. I was born this way. To suggest you can identify into a sexuality is offensive and homophobic.

Also, I know someone in that exact situation above (not my sister) who has been dragged across social media as a transphobe (my hundreds of people) to the point she deleted all of her accounts.

AngryAttackKittens · 18/07/2018 19:55

So (since this was a scenario I actually read about), two people with penises in a parked car, giving each other blow jobs. Is that lesbian sex if both parties say it is?

garam · 18/07/2018 19:54

Here is a question.
Say for instance my straight sister’s husband decides to “identify” as a transwoman. And he “identifies” as a lesbian. If she stays with him but refuses to identify as lesbian because she is still having sex with her penis wielding husband and therefore to her mind straight, is she a transphobe?

Nope, and she is whatever sexuality she defines herself, and neither myself nor you have any input on that.

OP posts:
AngryAttackKittens · 18/07/2018 19:53

As someone who's had sex with both people with vulvas and people with penises let me just say that these are very different experiences and most would not find them hard to distinguish between even if the person with a penis also had breasts.

"Lesbian sex" does not involve penises in any way. I really wish my bisexual sisters could learn to be OK with IDing as bi instead of trying to shoehorn themselves into the definition of "lesbian".

OlennasWimple · 18/07/2018 19:53

Argh - my last post was supposed to say "AKA not lesbians at all"

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 18/07/2018 19:51

I said nobody has the right to re-define a lesbians sexual identity because you disagree with it.

But what if they transagree with it?

NoDykeDoesDick · 18/07/2018 19:50

A list of links to bisexual and heterosexual women, and even a man thrown in there at the end. What of it?

UglyCathKidstonBag · 18/07/2018 19:49

Here is a question.
Say for instance my straight sister’s husband decides to “identify” as a transwoman. And he “identifies” as a lesbian. If she stays with him but refuses to identify as lesbian because she is still having sex with her penis wielding husband and therefore to her mind straight, is she a transphobe?

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 18/07/2018 19:49

In a way though. Men who only have sex/relationships with men are transheterosexuals.