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Original poster

Diva editor, responds to 'lesbian rights alliance' article in the times.

361 replies

garam · 17/07/2018 23:29

Another strongly worded restating of support for trans rights....

"A Times article, published today, announces “lesbian fury at Stonewall over ‘trans agenda’”, as if the 135 signatories of an open letter speak for every lesbian in the world.

Sorry, but you're wrong.

Given DIVA’s unequivocal stance on trans issues, I’m sure it goes without saying, but for anyone not quite sure: those 135 signatories do not speak for us, or for the majority of cisgender lesbians.

The letter, from an organisation calling themselves the Lesbian Rights Alliance, accuses Stonewall of erasing lesbians and says: “Stonewall has rarely represented our interests. Now in your single-minded policy to promote the trans political and ideological agenda you not only fail to represent us but you actually promote lesbian invisibility – and lesbian erasure.”

I do agree that lesbians are underrepresented in the LGBT community. But it's worse for bisexual people, and even more so for trans people who are also lesbian or bisexual. That's why it's so important that a magazine like DIVA exists, and that an organisation like Stonewall is women-led and promotes bi and trans inclusion. It's the likes of DIVA and Stonewall who are making us more visible.

In fact, I'd go further. It is not Stonewall – or any other LGBT organisation – erasing lesbian identities, but these so-called feminists who, by peddling hateful and transphobic rhetoric, make people like me not want to use the word lesbian to describe myself because I don’t want to be associated with their views. What a sad state of affairs.

The letter continues: “We urge you to stop claiming to represent us and leave the L out.”

Take your own advice, LRA, and stop claiming to represent lesbians. You do not speak for me, for DIVA, or for the majority of our community.

As I’ve said before, and I’ll say again, trans women do not erase lesbians. I believe we are enriched by trans friends and lovers, parents, children, colleagues and siblings.

Groups like the LRA would have you believe that it’s “them versus us”. It’s not. They are us. We’re one and the same, and we can’t let divisive, hateful and misguided people drive a wedge between us.

DIVA publisher Linda Riley agrees with me. She says: “It seems ironic to me to complain about a lack of lesbian visibility while, at the same time, asking the L to be removed from LGBT.

“We are stronger as a community and 135 lesbians should not be able to decide what a whole community should believe.”"

OP posts:
WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 19/07/2018 14:30

And what do Tilly and Mae Kham Puan have in common?

Both possessing vag, having fondness for vag and aversion to peen.

TheABC · 19/07/2018 14:24

I am a paid up member of the heterosexual girls club. I like cocks in my bed. I am now trying to square the circle in my head that if the owner of said cock feels female, I am gay. Despite my orientation for male partners.

Not convinced, so far. I can see why lesbians are saying the same.

SomeDyke · 19/07/2018 14:11

Did someone say lesbian elephants........

www.boundingoveroursteps.com/tilly-mae-kham-puan-lesbian-elephant-couple/

LangCleg · 19/07/2018 13:54

Come on, garam. We even did it in emoji for you. All we need is a yes or a no. Bite the bullet!

WomanLifeIsGoodish · 19/07/2018 13:43

To be fair, I don’t think the position is “refusing to accept”, it is more that you can’t “accept” something you know is not true.

It’s not the case of not accepting to be awkward!

It would be really helpful to get a yes/no position on the scenario posted as an equation.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 19/07/2018 13:36

Come on garam please address the bull elephants in the room doing a 69 - are they lesbian elephants?

Bowlofbabelfish · 19/07/2018 13:35

yeah and it always comes down to the fact that you and most of this forum refuse to accept trans women are women.

garam to accept that I’d need evidence that humans can change sex. Do you have this evidence? Do you believe humans can change sex?

Vickyyyy · 19/07/2018 13:34

yeah and it always comes down to the fact that you and most of this forum refuse believe that male people are women.

Fixed that for you there Hmm

I have no issue accepting transwomen as transwomen. But I do not believe that male people are women, as the definition of woman is adult human female and male females do not exist oddly enough.

Its the 'I believe in male females' crowd that are regressive in attitude and make not much sense, tbh. The entire trans ideology is basicallyhomophobic and misogynistic and actually..fairly transphobic too. Against, you know...'truscum' (I hate that term, but am not using it as an insult like transactivists do, only to show the actual transphobia)

SophoclesTheFox · 19/07/2018 13:31

If transwomen ARE women, what are they transitioning from and to? What are we even being taken to task for “refusing to accept?”

Also 2d+69=L Y/N?

Original poster
garam · 19/07/2018 13:17

Italiangreyhound

yeah and it always comes down to the fact that you and most of this forum refuse to accept trans women are women.

Far more people in general and women disagree with you, especially plenty of those lesbians that are being discussed.

OP posts:
Italiangreyhound · 19/07/2018 13:08

@NotBadConsidering ace!

LangCleg · 19/07/2018 12:45

Notbad wins the thread!

.

FloralBunting · 19/07/2018 12:42

All the cookies for NotBadConsidering

SophoclesTheFox · 19/07/2018 12:41

hahaha, notbad!!

NotBadConsidering · 19/07/2018 12:39

🍆🍆♋ = 🚺🚺?

LangCleg · 19/07/2018 12:32

We could play initials as well as equations?

AAQ = GGTB

(Clues: awkward, blind.)

Ereshkigal · 19/07/2018 12:30

If you think there is no material difference between trans women and men, I'm not surprised your wallowing around gender-crit boards using whataboutery as society moves on.

Society hasn't "moved on". Because this isn't any kind of progress. It's putting women's rights and status in society backwards. Ask Pink News what the British public thinks about self ID. Only 18% in support.

SophoclesTheFox · 19/07/2018 12:30

come on garam, admit it.

Your belief system leads you inexorably to concluding that D2+69=L if the participants say it does.

You know, we know it, everybody reading knows it, but you can’t type it out because deep down you know it’s as mad as a sack of wet cats.

Italiangreyhound · 19/07/2018 12:29

@garam 'If you are married to men and attracted to men, why would you think or identify as a lesbian? seems weird to me.'

I;d like to identify as a lesbian to show solidarity with these women but of course I do not identify as a lesbian because I know what a lesbian is. It may seem weird to you but certainly not as weird as women telling lesbians they should include males in their dating pool!

'And if you have the potential to be attracted to a trans woman, and indeed find a trans woman you are attracted to, and have a relationship with a trans woman.......... your still a lesbian if you consider it a lesbian relationship.'

So sexuality is really just what you consider it to be? So if I go off and sleep with one or two guys but don't actually consider it an affair I can tell my hubby I am 100% faithful?

Words have meanings, words define things.

'That seems pretty straightforward for most people.
I've tried to break it down as simply as I can.'

What you are attempting to break down is the definition of what a word means. Lesbian means women who are exclusively romantically and sexually attracted to women. Woman means adult human female. Trans woman means a male who identifies as a woman. It does not make them a woman so they cannot be a lesbian. I've tried to break it down as simply as I can.

'If you think there is no material difference between trans women and men...'

There are material differences about all people, between all people, people are not all identical. But males are males, the sex class male. Whether they present in a feminine or masculine way. Some trans women will have had surgery and hormones etc but some won't. I believe most won't have surgery.

So how are they different to males and the same as females?

'... I'm not surprised your wallowing around gender-crit boards using whataboutery as society moves on.'

We are on the same board together so not sure what your point is there and no the world has not 'moved on'. Women are getting the same shit, misogynistic, entitled treatment from males as ever.

'And if you don't see any material difference between your husband and someone like Paris Lees, your going to spend a lot of time from here on in being confused......' This comment is so ridiculous I am not even going to reply to it.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 19/07/2018 12:27

Thanks Hotrocker

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 19/07/2018 12:26

Vulva + trans × MA* + N = N
Vulva + identify as × MA + N = N

  • MA = Male approval Where Male approval = 0, N= 0
HotRocker · 19/07/2018 12:26

L = O + O except for when D = L when D + (O + O(

D is a magic value which you can add to any equation, like 0, where it’ll cancel its self out or else the answer will always be D.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 19/07/2018 12:22

you can only identify as something you are not, IMO.

Penis + trans + N* = N
Penis + identify as + N = N

  • N = anything at all.
WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 19/07/2018 12:17

garam stop avoiding it.

Does D2 + 69 = L ?

Yes or no?

Popchyk · 19/07/2018 12:14

So if being a lesbian or a gay man is all about identifying as such rather than actually being lesbian or gay, then can exclusively heterosexual people represent gay people in LGB roles? They must be able to, surely.

For example, would it be okay if an exclusively heterosexual man was the head of Stonewall? If he said that his sexual experiences with solely female people made him identify as a gay man?

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