Diva editor, responds to 'lesbian rights alliance' article in the times.

Tweet from Throwaway Gay:

“we’re not FORCING you to change your sexual orientation. we’re just gaslighting you and calling you a transphobe until you do!”

stop playing dumb. you know exactly what you’re fucking doing

twitter.com/Throwaway_Gay/status/1018567912934858752

or even No Shit Sherlock

yeah and it always comes down to the fact that you and most of this forum refuse to accept trans women are women

Not Shit Sherlock

But thanks for looking out for me.

@HotRocker my apology stands only if I did actually say something untrue.

Garam, why won’t you answer the question?

Is it because you know the scenario fails because, as hotrocker so clearly put it, at least one lesbian (natal female) needs to be present to validate it; or is it that it fails twice over because you know that a male can never be a female homosexual regardless of who else is present?

Which is it- does it lack one lesbian or two?

garam - lesbians do not include real life penis and penis bearers in their sexual activities. It is that simple. Why are you trying to over-complicate it?

@Bowlofbabelfish and @longtimelurkingtrans thank you.

Please do join in longtime. I think you are pretty eloquent too. We need trans voices too. I know not all trans people buy into this TWAW. It's not anti trans to speak about biological truth.

The TRA reteric really is like a medieval religion where science is banned and dissent is blasphemy - and is punished!

This is not good for trans people or youth. Teenage girls (some) really do think you can change sex and men can give birth!

@garam "I have said at least three times in this thread people are able to choose their partners based on whatever criteria they want, they are free to exclude whoever they want."

I apologise unreservedly if I have ascribed to you ideas or views you do not hold.

"I have never seen a single trans activist say anything contrary to that..."

Then you have not looked. Google Riley J Denis 'Your dating choices are discriminatory.' Or RJD's equally offensive girlfriend. They just love yelling women what to do!

If I can find, then I will post.

"...that trans voice as representative..."

Representative of whom? People spout their own views on social media. Trans people do not get to define lesbianism.

"...you will never see trans person advocating a position of forcing people to accept them as sexual partners."

You certainly will not hear them use the word 'force'. But coercion is the same thing. You will see coercion. You will hear it.

'It is as ridiculous as it is fabricated.'

It is not fabricated. But you are right, to guilt trip women into accepting someone sexually, is worse than ridiculous, it is rapey.

But then I think I will post links, and maybe others will too, and you will say it is not real or not all trans women are like that. And of course they are not.

Just think for a minute.
.why are lesbians putting their head above the parapet to speak out now, why be so hated publicly? Why risk so much if it is not true?

If I transition and “become a man” and then detransition am then I a “transwoman”?
If I “identify” as gay whilst I’m a man, is my husband gay?
Even if he “identifies” as gay, is he actually a homosexual male whilst he is rhythmically pumping his sperm into my vagina?

@ItalianGreyHound Great posts and gets your point across beautifully if only I could post so eloquently I would join in this thread properly.

Garam

You are making this so complicated.

Just accept that you and all other transactivists allow the validation of men to overcome absolutely everything else.

Including sexual orientation, science, biology and women's rights.

It makes you misogynistic, on every level. The need to overcome all those realities just to validate man is extraordinary.

Pitiful.

I don't know why you are baulking at the eleventh hour over putting your money where your mouth is to confirm that two men giving each other blowjobs is lesbian sex though.

Queer ≠ lesbian.

Absolutely. Shouldn’t even need saying should it, that a lesbian is a female homosexual.

Let me rephrase - if the push was for greater acceptance of gender non conformity in society with no parallel push to remove or infringe on anyone else’s rights, freedoms or ability to live as they wish, then almost everyone would be on board.

If the push was for greater acceptance of gender non conforming people with no push for removalnof safe spaces for women and child safeguarding

... and no re-branding of lesbian by heterosexuals.

Queer ≠ lesbian.

garam

The position set out above by Italian greyhound is eminently reasonable and I’d bet sums up how an awful lot of people feel about this.

Humans, quite simply, cannot change sex. Everyone has a right to safety. Everyone has a right to freedom of expression. What they don’t have a right to do is reduce the freedoms of others in order to express themselves.

People can identify however they wish. However they do not have the right to force the rest of the world to accept a position that is faith based. Nor do they have a right to force the rest of the world to give up their own safety in order to validate them.

That is what is alienating people. If the push was for greater acceptance of gender non conforming people with no push for removalnof safe spaces for women and child safeguarding, then almost everyone would be on board with it.

Garam, are you saying all the material gathered in the Cotton Ceiling section of www.terfisaslur.com is fake?

I have personally seen transwomen saying these kinds of things to lesbians.

You should probably stop dismissing and making excuses for rape culture, especially after your rape apologist comment in another thread.

If you think there is no material difference between trans women and men, I'm not surprised your wallowing around gender-crit boards using whataboutery as society moves on.

As society moves on? I think not. Having successfully positioned themselves as the most oppressed of the oppressed, gained the ears of influential people, and changed the law while no one was looking, the TRAs suddenly find themselves confronted with the first real opposition to their ideology.

Gender critical feminists are armed with fact, science and logic, Garam. Trans ideology is faith based - arguing that human beings can change sex simply by declaring this to be true. When challenged on these beliefs transactivists can do nothing but hurl insults and do anything to distract from their threadbare claims. Hence all the accusations of transphobia, etc.

Trans ideology is regressive and oppressive. It's homophobic and misogynistic. And women working at grassroots level are finally getting ourselves heard. The TRAs are no longer having it all their own way, which is why we see all the rants and rages.

garam

2D+69=L

YES or NO?

@garam Can I say I believe you are saying these things because you actually feel it is kinder to trans people. I don't think you are being goady or argumentative. I always try and see the best in people.

But even I would be quite surprised if you really said you felt people could change sex.

So could you be honest and say what you think is really happening. Are you saying it doesn't matter? It doesn't matter what sex someone is born, or what gentiles they have or had in the past?

'Far more people in general and women disagree with you, especially plenty of those lesbians that are being discussed.' I am afraid I do not believe you.

A lot of people have come out on twitter to tell lesbians off for how they feel.

These people on twitter say they are women, they say they are lesbian, maybe they are; some say they are partnered with trans women and identify as lesbians and so do their partners.

Those who are not females, and not in relationship with females are not actual lesbians.

It's a bit like white people who identify as 'black' or 'Filipino. If they are challenged by genuine black or Filipino people can the white people really just argue back I'm 'black' or 'Filipino because I say I am. Is that OK?

The thing is the atmosphere for women and feminists and lesbians is so toxic right now it is quite common, I think to comply with the zeitgeist and say the same as the TRAs, just for a quiet life.

And other women have no idea these debates are going on.

If a woman wants to sleep with a trans woman, go for it. Like I really could not care less. but do not tell other women they should include trans women in their dating pool.

You are not on the right side of history if you are attempting to coerce women to date people they do not wish to date for any reason at all.

@garam 'yeah and it always comes down to the fact that you and most of this forum refuse to accept trans women are women.'

I think you have got it. The thing is I think you are feeling that this failure on my part to agree with you is based on some kind of dislike or whatever. It is just based in fact. I know what males are and I know what females are. And the vast, vast majority of the world conforms to this basic biological principle, with a very small number of people with medical conditions which vary.

Males are socialized in our society in a different way and have different bodies to us, reproductively. Private areas like toilets and changing rooms (locker rooms) hospitals, medical wards etc are generally segregated by sex for the protection of females.

My understanding of these basic principles is just a fact and most people would, I feel sure, agree if they even guessed these basic truths were up for debate.

What it does not mean is anything negative. I care about trans people, I know trans people, I want trans people to be safe, I want everyone to be safe. I honestly, honestly do.

Males have a much, much higher rate of offending in violent and sexual crime than women. So any man who says he is a woman, is not female. He is a man who says this about himself. Now, I am not required by law to simply accept or believe what any person tells me about themselves.

If the law is changed to mean I need to believe any man who tells me he is now female like me, it will be a travesty. It will lead to danger for natal females and. I think, it will lead to a backlash against trans people, which I most certainly do not want.

It does not mean I hate or dislike anyone. It means I do not believe you can change sex, and that is based on biology.

I am genuinely sorry this is so difficult for a number of people but we cannot re-order society and ignore serious safeguarding issues because some people are uncomfortable in their sexed bodies.

There are lots of trans people who understand this and agree with this position. This position is not anti-trans.