Diva editor, responds to 'lesbian rights alliance' article in the times.

So, it's settled then, yes?

2D + 69 ≠ L

Because if even garam cannot bring themselves to say otherwise, we have complete consensus.

Hooray!

Do we need to? Remember you’re talking to different groups of people. The general public, who seem to be fairly reasonable on this issue, and a small group of activists for whom NOTHING but total capitulation will do. So why do you need to counter an accusation you know isn’t true?

This.

Make the positive arguments you want to make and ignore the white noise of extremist ideologues.

I am not sure if this is the right place to post this but, how can we combat this unreal perception we are 'phobic'?

Do we need to? Remember you’re talking to different groups of people. The general public, who seem to be fairly reasonable on this issue, and a small group of activists for whom NOTHING but total capitulation will do. So why do you need to counter an accusation you know isn’t true?

There’s a danger with that - when someone starts to accuse you (generic you) of transphobia it puts you on the back foot, you spend time and energy showing you’re not and it detracts from what you are actually arguing.

The thing is, that most people I think share your general view - they aren’t anti trans at all, they are concerned over very specific areas of policy and law change. Other people are concerned over the actual concepts involved but joe and Joanna public will be issue focused.

So I think we just keep up with the genuine concerns we have for women’s rights/safety/child safeguarding/prisons/etc.

None of that is transphobic. Keep the argument on what matters, keep the language factual as you can, keep the emotional tone sensible. Focus on what you’re actually concerned over. Anyone reasonable can see that the concerns are reasonable and when people start mud slinging and coming out with outrageous statements on things like males being lesbians it doesn’t detract from your argument - it detracts from theirs.

We are socialised as women to bloody apologise for our points of view all the time. Your POV seems reasonable to me - don’t expend energy apologising or tying yourself in knots trying to prove you’re not transphobic when you aren’t. Focus on the issues that matter to you.

I'm bowing out of this thread now, everything that had been said in the first few pages is just being endlessly repeated like some sort of mantra of wishful thinking.

Course you're flouncing. You have run out of options.

You couldn't bring yourself to say that two men giving each other blowjobs is lesbian sex.

And of course, it's come to you in a blinding flash of clarity, that 2D x 69 = L is never, ever going to wash.

It's offensive to lesbians, gay men and straight men. Score!

Plus your bitter and resentful rant about women.

The irony of this is that feminists now realise they don't need to say a damn thing.

Just sit back, relax and let you do all the talking.

garam bowing out of the thread? I eagerly await the next baity load of fresh cobblers they post with sole purpose of ignoring most replies for 10 pages and then doing a couple of sneery ranty replies replete with ominous pronouncements of clichés involving 'history' and 'tiny minority'.

It's like a revolving door round here, what with Daim flouncing and garam doing drive by sniping.

@ItalianGreyHound. That's a good post and sums up beautifully what the concern that everyday women have with access to their spaces and bodies. I also feel vulnerable undressing or sharing toilet facilities with men after my experiences so I will wholeheartedly back women who want these area male free.
It is mind boggling how debate online and in real life examples of this is all women shortlists with trans females on them has effectively been shut down as hate speech by this well funded crowd. Like I said in earlier posts here it was always women who were my biggest ally both as gay male or when presenting as trans. It's even gotten to the crazy stage where someone like me in my workplace could be disciplined for transphobia for using term like T.V or TS instead of TG.

Dunning Kruger syndrome in action is always quite a sight.

Isn't it just?!

I'm enjoying the complete disregard for conversational norms, also.

Anyway, garam: 2D + 69 = L.

Yes or no?

Anyone who can watch Rapey Riley and not feel sick is suspect in my book.

I am not sure if this is the right place to post this but, how can we combat this unreal perception we are 'phobic'?

I think a coalition of feminists and gender critical trans people might win public opinion and 'save the day' because we need to refute the idea we are in any way phobic!

We need to show we do care about trans people, which we do. This is just my opinion, no one needs to agree with me!

I think we need to show we are caring because it is the right thing to do and not because we are socialized to care! IMHO. I think we need to campaign for third spaces.or at least some of us should.

This is a not our problem but it has become our problem.

Let's name it. This is a male problem not a trans problem. How often do we end up talking about trans men? Rarely.

But males are the problem whether they identify as men, women, straight, lesbian, nom-binary or whatever. (Yes I am mixing my sexuality with my 'gender' expression/identity.)

Males are the problem if there want access to our spaces, unwelcome access to our bodies, or to speak on behalf of us. What males are trying to do is appropriate us.

With all the identity politics, how is that not being identified?

Can we find a few slogans to sum any of that up? Or am I barking up a wrong tree?

bet all those heterosexual men wanking themselves stupid to 2 straight women shoving various objects inside each other would disagree with you Garam. In fact, I reckon 2D + 69 = L would really piss them off.

What’s this got to do with anything? I don’t give a fuck what men wank to - there’s plenty wanking to people with dicks. So what? They’re still not lesbians.

Dunning Kruger syndrome in action is always quite a sight.

Society doesn't move on that much - you'll be told to get to fuck if you go out there trying to rule womens' sexuality AND present as a womans' replacement.

You want to be the replacement because you want the attention of hetero men, and for them to love you as women. They will be your nemesis, the sword upon which you will fall but I guess, not exactly in the way you'd like to...

I bet all those heterosexual men wanking themselves stupid to 2 straight women shoving various objects inside each other would disagree with you Garam. In fact, I reckon 2D + 69 = L would really piss them off.

indistinguishable from right-wing evengelicals

The lack of self-awareness is staggering, TBH

Society is moving on, this is a position of a tiny band of attention seekers. That is dwindling fast and has no real support.

You must really live in an echo chamber because that’s so backwards it’s actually quite funny.

The trans population is small and, outside of places like Twitter, most people don’t even think about this issue. Even there, it’s a bubble - my DH uses Twitter a lot and has never seen any of this stuff.

As it gradually becomes bigger in the public eye, it’s most definitely the TRAs who are shooting themselves in the foot, as more and more people hear the increasingly delusional ideology. Even Pink News couldn’t get more than a fifth of people to agree with your stance - if you genuinely think the majority of the population agrees then I think you need to go and talk to real people more.

lol?

All the most intelligent posts start like that. MLK started the fashion: "lol, I have a dream, you guys". Or was it Winston C "lol, we shall fight them on the beaches".

Do pop back if you ever feel like answering an actual question.

You say that society is moving on.

Are you saying that societal opinion is itself changing scientific and material reality?

How does that work?

There seems to be an error made between "defining" and "describing".

We shouldn't "define" people's sexuality for them. Actually, I agree with that. As a feminist, I object to heteronormativity as part of power dynamics that disadvantage women, and a key part of feminism has been saying to men, "hey, YOU don't get to define what women's sexuality is!". So i could actually get on board with that - BUT! (and it's a big but).

What's happening here is "describing" sexuality, isn't it? If a man and a woman are having sex, that's heterosexual sex. You're not "defining" anythng about them, you are noting that they are mashing genitals in a combination that has traditionally led to the continuation of our species.

Again, it all starts with changing the meaning of words - little by little you steer language in the direction that you want it to go, and before you know it you end up with 2D +69=L.

This debate always always always ends up at the same point. Be nicer because someone feels like objective, legally defined categories are just mean - to men.

And this:
feministheretic.wordpress.com/2017/08/23/peer-pressure/

I think the number of people in leadership positions in formerly LGBT and women's rights organizations who have come out as homophobic misogynists means it is time to acknowledge that transitioning away the Gays and Lesbians and stripping women of their rights has been the goal since the groups were taken over by MRAs.

A good lawyer could make a case that Genderism is a form of belief system and people like Riley J Dennis are preaching a form of conversion therapy.

We don't need a good lawyer to say that - plenty of us have been saying that for quite some time now! Of course it's gay conversion therapy.

How have we ended up back at a point where people are saying that sexual orientation can be changed if you try hard enough?

I've asked that question many times and I still have no understanding of how it is deemed somehow progressive.

There is a new law proposed as part of the governments LGBT plan that specifically tackles banning all forms of gay conversion therapy.

www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/gay-cures-could-be-banned-under-a-new-law-in-the-uk?origin=shp&utm_term=.agKDb9YL9Y#.rqyMJ25K25

So-called conversion therapy – dubbed gay "cures" – has been condemned as dangerous and ineffective by every major mental health body in Britain, including the Department of Health and Social Care and the Royal College of Psychiatrists. It involves counsellors, therapists, or religious leaders using either talking therapies or prayer to try to suppress an individual's homosexuality and turn them heterosexual.

A good lawyer could make a case that Genderism is a form of belief system and people like Riley J Dennis are preaching a form of conversion therapy.

This video explicitly states that lesbians can “unlearn” their conditioned repulsion to penises if they just try, because refusing is like saying you’re not attracted to black people.

And let's not forget that unlearning a sexual orientation means you can unlearn any sexual orientation.

I can't wait for that to go down on the next Piers Morgan show. (So to speak).

Let’s be frank here, OP.

What is the motivation for trying to equate one’s innate sexual orientation to racism and fatphobia?

everydayfeminism.com/2016/12/dating-preferences-discriminatory/

This video explicitly states that lesbians can “unlearn” their conditioned repulsion to penises if they just try, because refusing is like saying you’re not attracted to black people.

How have we ended up back at a point where people are saying that sexual orientation can be changed if you try hard enough?

Condeming the threats, abuse and coercion isn't enough.

If you so much as say these males can be lesbians, you are contributing to this rape rape culture, you are encouraging them, you are telling them that their pursuit of lesbians is OK. It isn't.

How can people not see this?