Transgirl in friend's school

Making 'woman' and 'girl' identities that anyone can adopt removes the protected characteristic of sex.

There are nine protected characteristics under the Equality Act of 2010.
Taking the position that one protected characteristic trumps the rights of all others is the antithesis of equality.

Ten years of teaching girls in schools all over the UK that the only escape from rigidly enforced sex roles is transitioning.
Ten years from now the evil they have done by abrogating their safeguarding responsibilities to these children will come home to administrators and facilitators.

Good for that headmaster - really refreshing!

If young children or teenagers are sincere about transitioning then they might need protection from others as they could be vulnerable whether anyone wishes them harm or not.

I can easily see that it would be terrifying as a boy-becoming-a-girl to go into the boys toilets, or vice-versa.

But they also need to know that part of transitioning and growing up means still being courteous and considerate of others, and aware of the realities of their own bodies. Others might still feel vulnerable in front of them, whether they like it or not - just like they have their own terrors.

If they're not sincere about transitioning, then others definitely need protection from them.

Either way, third (or fourth if you include disabled) spaces are the way.

I can see the attraction of a third space, but what about all the other genders? Should they get one each?

And if that's not complicated enough it might avoid racist bullying if we have them for each ethnic group too so why stop there?

Since splitting toilets/changing rooms was always about bodies and there are only two sexes let's just have one for male and one for female.

Sorted!

I cannot imagine how difficult it must be for the girls being expected to change in front of boys and share the same toilets. We used to have enough girls changing in the toilets because they didn't want to change in front of the other girls. Going through puberty can be incredibly difficult.
Why is it only the transgirl's feelings that need to be taken into consideration?

Having attended an extremely rough comprehensive school I would think that it is safer for everyone including the trans pupil that there be a third safe space toilet designated. Not all teenage girls are shrinking violets or woke. Depending on the school of course.

There's also another contradictory thing creeps in. The transgirl must be protected and given privacy from males because?? If natal females do not require privacy from the transgirl?

We have sex segregation because male and female bodies are different from each other. A transgirl in a school is physically no different from a boy, since a child should not be taking cross-sex hormones and should not have had surgery. Changing which facilities they use based on feelings is insane.

I really don't understand why so many people seem to have lost the capacity for rational thought over this issue.

Its just common sense. Let pupils dress as they want, use the name they want, but when it comes to gendered spaces a 3rd space is the most sensible option.

Sounds like our government could learn a lot from Ireland in the practical implementation of self ID.

Dreadful attitude towards safeguarding SarahAr. Don't really get how you think that's ok. Are you a perv?! Shows exactly what you think of females; even 12 year olds should budge up and accept the penis holder as king.

There's also another contradictory thing creeps in. The transgirl must be protected and given privacy from males because?? If natal females do not require privacy from the transgirl?

YY.

We don't know in this case that there are any disabled children at the school who need disable toilet facilities. And perhaps there is only one such child, if a second disabled child came along that would be ok, but not the transgirl!?

Yes in the general case that if there are. Lot of transpeople then redesignatiting disabled loos as unisex withou increasing the number of units would be daft, but In this case there is no information that suggests disabled people are losing resources

Agree that allowing the use of a disabled toilet is massively unfair on the disabled people that need to use it.

Ive been struggling to articulate in my head why single sex spaces are important even if there is no threat of assault. And I think it's because privacy is really important but I think easy to dismiss somehow.

There's also another contradictory thing creeps in. The transgirl must be protected and given privacy from males because?? If natal females do not require privacy from the transgirl? But it's the conflating of sex and gender again isn't it? And/or the raising of the importance of gender above the importance of sex.

I was very struck by the advice give re. toilets posted above. "Everyone" deserves this but the transchild deserves it more. All animals are equal but some are more equal than others.

Another poster agreeing with Lurkacus here. Lumping changing facilities and anything else in with disabled loos is massively unfair to the disabled, who are never provided with enough spaces anyway.

SarahAr , look we understand the general principle . Any girl who doesn't want to be naked in front of a man or have a man naked in front of her shouldn't have rights.

And this isn't to do with you hoping to be in that position yourself is it...

Does the transgirl have a criminal history of sexual abuse? Do the toilets not have doors on their cubicles?

By this logic-every boy in that school who does not have a criminal history of sexual abuse should be allowed access to the girls toilets.

I don't have any numbers, sorry! I'm not an expert on any of this, just a slightly gobsmacked observer of an explosion of 'trans identity' in my teenagers' schools and colleges, and a further, smaller, tendency for it to be the midlife crisis of choice amongst STEM-based blokes we know.

I suspect the numbers of middle-aged men transitioning vastly outnumber the middle-aged women going the other way.

I would love to see the numbers for this. If they are as you (and I) expect, that would be another WTF moment for the average person on the street.

That's specifically the Tavistock's data on young people (up to 18), isn't it? I suspect the numbers of middle-aged men transitioning vastly outnumber the middle-aged women going the other way.*

*Not counting the possible transing of half the population of MN according to the average online survey.

I don't believe that there has been an explosion in the genuine trans population in the world. I do think there is a subset of adult fetishists (mainly male, predictably) who have their own agenda.

In the UK, a significant source of the increase is girls (although it doesn't seem that way because they make a fraction of the noise):

In 2016/17, 1400 of the referrals were for young people assigned female at birth (AFAB), and 616 for those assigned male at birth. Last year those numbers were 929 and 490. This continues the trend of an increase in AFAB referrals proportionately.

tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/about-us/news/stories/gids-referrals-increase-slows-201617/

The fact that there aren't alarm bells going off all over the shop astonishes me. (I realise that they're "only girls" but even so.)

As the discussion is about toilets / changing, English schools MUST offer sex segregated toilets and washing facilities for pupils over the age of 8. It's the law. Organisations that tell schools otherwise are wrong.

Guidance here:
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/719398/Gender-separation-guidance.pdf

I hated getting changed in front of other girls at school. If I'd have to have changed in front of boys as well I wouldn't have done any sport.

Me neither, exactly.

I find it fascinating how a female asking for her need for privacy in an intimate setting to be respected is immediately labelled transphobic. We're supposed to be "nice", are we?

I'm genuinely afraid for the daughters of some of the women who buy into this shit.

I don't believe that there has been an explosion in the genuine trans population in the world. I do think there is a subset of adult fetishists (mainly male, predictably) who have their own agenda. Their agenda is not woman friendly. Their agenda is not trans friendly. Their agenda is not lesbian friendly. Their agenda is domination. At all costs. They're prepared to sacrifice children, women, and true trans people, in their quest to become powerful.

And they're relying on women to shut the fuck up about it.

This trans child in this school may well be as far away from being a risk to girls as you can be.

But they may not. 17 year olds can be sexual predators, you know. There's a 16 year old boy on a Scottish Island who's awaiting trial, right now, for raping and murdering a 6 year old girl.

Or don't girls have any right to privacy and safety? Are we really there, already?