Sex by deception

Was it Snappity who on another thread said the reason a TW should disclose their trans status was to protect the ego of a man who may be upset because he didn’t impregnate her?
I think it was, although which version of Gollum, I mean Snapity it was I don’t know.

That comment is an excellent example of why I'm choosing not to engage with Snappity any more. I'm not qualified to deal with that level of detachment from reality.

(We need a shorthand for this, like IANAL but for mental health issues.)

So it either should go or be extended to cover marital status (definitely a biggie for many people), virgin or not (hugely important in some religions), known infertility (important to anyone wanting kids), infectious diseases like HIV and so on. All those things are just as important to informed consent - some more so.~}

I think it's clear what Snappity wants.

The implications of this are troubling and, frankly, downright sinister.

Yes erish the infertility one is fucking stupid as well

Though completely on board with the marital status one

I can't pretend to be a virgin. I've had children and the existence of those children and their effect on my body which cannot be hidden when naked, means I can't pretend to be a virgin.

But a transwoman can.

Actually mind blown.

I am not surprised that transgender advocates cannot see, or refuse to look, beyond their own personal interests in this matter.

I wish I was surprised, because selfishness at that level is always depressing.

Your suggestion that lying about virginity should be a criminal offence is one of the most offensive comments I've ever read on here

Once again i agree with lass

Disgusting...

I think there's an element of uncertainty with sperm donation though. I agree you would feel violated and used but I don't see it as the same as pretending you are the opposite sex. Not averse to penalties where appropriate for other people who deliberately deceive others to have sex but I think pretending you're another sex is on a different level and so would most people.

I am glad to see attitudes toward intimate contact through deception shifting away from celebrating it as manly achievement to finally recognizing it as unethical and in some cases criminal.
Informed consent requires information be shared.
I am not surprised that transgender advocates cannot see, or refuse to look, beyond their own personal interests in this matter.

Virginity? Why is that more important than an unexpected set of genitals?

I think there was a case in Israel where an Israeli Arab was charged and convicted of raping a Jewish woman because he presented himself as Jewish to her.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-10717186

Yeah the virginity thing is pretty offensive actually.

@AngryAttackKittens, sperm donation though natural insemination is a well documented phenomenon that is already being abused.

Likelihood of infertility being relevant in a sexual encounter which wasn’t repeated and where it wasn’t being discussed as a matter of course (e.g. long term relationship) is extremely low. Of course like any other disclosure it relies on human decency in terms of when you would choose to make it.

Sigh.

I mean, you could also argue that what if the proposed sexual partner was a lizard alien like the ones in V and wasn't disclosing that he and his friends intended to eat all of us, but perhaps sticking to the scenarios that are relevant and likely might be more useful.

@Ereshkigal not to lessen the offensiveness of the virginity comment but I can see how known infertility (for either partner) might be used in a deceptive capacity if the encounter is predicated on an expectation of pregnancy.

Imagine, for example, how violated a woman might feel if, under the guise of natural insemination for sperm donation, a 'donor' who'd had a vasectomy used her repeatedly for sexual pleasure, knowing that they were never going to fulfill their part of the arrangement.

And "known infertility".

Yes - that is ridiculous too.

The sinister way its all happening is very much of the boiled frog analogy.

Known infertility - is not related to sexual orientation or attraction and therefore not necessary to disclose to someone before having sex. A completely different issue.

How about we strengthen rather than weaken laws around consent, eh?

At what stage in a relationship should an individual disclose their gender (and whether they are trans or not) to their potential partner?

Before any sort of sexual intimacy happens, at the very least. Ethical people generally share potential dealbreakers right from the outset.

Snappity
I really wish you would give up with the anti-trans rhetoric. Not just on this topic but in general.
Just because you don't agree does not make it anti-trans
Are there actually anti-trans laws or
anti-trans rights?
No, just laws and rights that you don't like.

Just like the lesbian protesters at Pride last week were just that, lesbians. Not anti-trans protesters.

It's really getting fucking tedious now.

And "known infertility".

Agree Lass. I am boggling at that.