Sex by deception

How do you know if the TW knows this other woman is a lesbian?

Some trans actively seek out lesbians, it's a form of validation for them. See my addition to the cotton ceiling evidence thread.

What you say would have not only uncontroversial but universally accepted less than a decade ago, Voice0fReason.

We're aware of trans ideology because we've been down the rabbit hole. But I imagine most people in the mainstream would be baffled and angered by the idea that men can become female by no more than an effort of will.

If you are only interested in people with a particular set of genitals (as most of the population are) then in order to consent, you have to know if the genitals of a new partner are possibly going to come as a surprise as they don't match fully clothed appearances.
Full disclosure before any intimacy is vital.

Due diligence is one thing but people are still under a duty to disclose and not to lie by omiision of otherwise, and if someone is determined to deceive then they can do quite a good job of that. Have you never been taken in by anyone? Jees, it is difficult enough when choosing plumbers!!!

I was being facetious by referring to "due diligence " but the fact is other than the exceptions which have been discussed your choice to have sex with someone and your consent to doing so is based on what you see before you.

That is sensible- we have seen absurd examples (millionaire/ virgin/ has travelled in Concorde)

What "duty to disclose" do you think applies? And I mean in law- not " but he told me he was rich/ but she me she was a virgin?"

Really Taco you are twisting things. Being trans, pre-op or post-op is not the default expression of human sexuality and neither is being bisexual. That is the only assumption a trans person can make about their potential partner (if they don't know anything else about them) and so based on that, they have a duty to disclose.

Consent about sex is about people being clearly, enthustically and freely consenting to do certain things, not relying on drink or drug or ambiguity to help them get their end away.

Can you imagine a situation where every biological woman had to be seriously asked if they were 'a real biological woman and not trans in any way.. and I mean don't have a penis' just for the avoidance of doubt, if it becomes increasingly common for trans people to feel that they can keep their trans status a secret in all situations.

It should be a given that if you are trying to pass as the opposite sex, then you bloody well say so. And how else can they be accepted for who they really are?

it's not up to you to decide what qualifies as consent.
I know, that's why I said personally

I just think that we're talking about a miniscule number of cases here; it doesn't mean that we shouldn't talk about it, but how many women do you really think there are that wouldn't realise that the person they're having sex with has a penis

lass seemed like ' buyer beware' was what you meant when you said

A sexually transmissable disease is not self - evident but beyond that anyone contemplating having sex should make their mind up on the basis of what they see before them. If the single, Christian, multi- millionaire turns out to be an unemployed, atheist, married job-seeker with a poor credit history - tough luck. Do your due diligence a bit more thoroughly if it's important to you.

Due diligence is one thing but people are still under a duty to disclose and not to lie by omiision of otherwise, and if someone is determined to deceive then they can do quite a good job of that. Have you never been taken in by anyone? Jees, it is difficult enough when choosing plumbers!!!

"How is that relevant?

The person might be bi or just wondering what sex with a woman might be like."

Because if the TW knew for a fact that they were a lesbian then they would know for definite that they wanted female anatomy. Then if they tried to continue then they would be deliberately misleading them I.e. committing sexual assault. But if they don't know the sexual orientation then how can they be misleading them? They don't know what sex they are attracted to; the obvious and sensible thing would be to ask, but it doesn't mean that the TW is committing sexual assault if they don't.

Tbh I'm pretty sure most TW know that they don't 'pass' to others. I'm sure they're painfully aware that they still appear to be their biological sex, that's where their dysphoria comes from isn't it? So they probably assume that any woman willing to have sex with them knows that they are male.

TacoLover, I assumed you were male because women tend to assume a significant number of any other women she was interacting with had been raped/sexually assaulted.

Plus you said what I went through was dismissed by the authorities, which most women would have assumed was likely and predictable, whereas you sound surprised.

I didn't report either of my rapes. The first because I was 17 and in a country where I didn't speak the language very well, the second because I had a realistic view of how the police deal with rape.

You say: Personally I don't consider lack of knowledge about the other's genitals a lack of consent - it's not up to you to decide what qualifies as consent. And I wonder if you would be quite so sanguine if it happened to you.

To equate your consent to sex with DH if you knew he'd called you a bitch with another woman's consent to sex with someone who's not the sex they're representing themselves to be is to trivialise what is a serious rapey deception.

Even "buyer beware" which Lass seems to be advocating, does not protect sellers from the consequences of making fraudulent claims or deals made in bad faith

I was stating the law- not advocating anything. The law is that other than the exceptions we have discussed you are making a choice to have sex with the person there with you on the basis of what you see.

How do you know if the TW knows this other woman is a lesbian?

How is that relevant?

The person might be bi or just wondering what sex with a woman might be like.

TacoLover clearly what happened to you was wrong and terrible and I am sorry that you expereinced that and did not get justice That is unforgiveable. It is also wrong to deliberately deceive someone to gain sexual access to their body whoch they would otherwise not give. Crimes vary in method and severity but are all judged to be wrong. Gaining sex by decpetion is wrong.

How much money you have, whether you are married, if you are a virgin, how many sexual partners you have had - all apply to whether you want to enter a relationship with someone. Not sex. You don't stop wanting to have sex with someone because they have less money in the bank or because they are married. You might make a conscious decision not to enter a sexual relationship with a married man based on your own moral compass, but it doesn't change the fact that you fancy them and want to have sex with them

I don't completely agree here. I am living proof that it becomes possible to stop wanting to have sex with someone because they were married. Lies are deeply unattractive to many people. And the truth being revealed can kill both love and lust stone dead.

We can all draw the line exactly where we want to and for any reason regardless of what anyone else thinks. I thnk it is really important that we uphold that right, and think it should be protected more in law, especially because it sends a strong message to men about women's boundaries being non-violable.

Sardines there is no "grey area" when it comes to disclosing sex prior or sexual acts if one is a transperson as trying to be the opposite sex. The onus is on them to declare not to dupe someone about something so fundmantal as which sex they are. Likewise HIV status etc.

The main premise being if you have reason to believe that sharing information you hold would lead the person to refuse sex or sexual acts, then you must disclose otherwise you have not gained informed consent. Basic human decency and honesty and respect requires this.

Even "buyer beware" which Lass seems to be advocating, does not protect sellers from the consequences of making fraudulent claims or deals made in bad faith.

I find it insidious that any person would want to roll this back.

And in the present climate it would be almost impossible to get a satisfactory answer from some trans people. If you asked a TWwhothinnkstheyarearealwoman, if they are a real woman, they they would say "yes". Then if you said "yes, but are you a biological woman" they may also say yes as they believe they were born female with female penis. This does not meet most people heterosexual or biological defintions and is entirely confusing and misleading. To allow such gaslighting to be made legal is abhorrent.

And if you were 'found out' by a man after answering that you were a real woman (but witholding that you have a female penis) then I am not suprised at all that it may be met with violence. (men tending to be violent and all that) but it is truly awful, abusive behaviour.

I can honeslty say that if somehow it were done to me that if the deciever was in my personal space at that time there is a good chance that I would physically lash out in a self defensive 'get off me' way out of shock and anger. I am sure that any lesbian doing that would land them in big trouble with some of the raging transwomen types.

So you're clearly sceptical that lesbians will always be able to identify whether a sexual partner is a woman or a man who identifies as a woman.
Um, I'm not. I haven't really been in the same situation so i don't know how good i can tell but as the vast majority of posters think this, I'm just assuming it as true. Don't really know what you're going on about there.

If a transwoman is hoping to have sex with a lesbian it is deceptive if the transwoman is aware the lesbian is expecting female anatomy once they're naked. Frankly, if you can't appreciate how traumatic that would be you need to work on your empathy. And your understanding of what sexual orientation means.

Did you read what i said? I literally said 'if the TW doesn't know they are a lesbian' so how can they be aware that they're expecting female anatomy? And I said that deliberately misleading someone is sex by deception. So I don't know why you're accusing me of not having enough empathy when I described a situation where the TW doesn't know that the other is a lesbian

""I'm guessing you're not female. Because if you were - or if you even took a serious interest in women and women's experience - you'd know that 1 in 5 of us will be sexually assaulted.

I've been raped twice. That's sadly not uncommon. If I were a lesbian who found I'd been deliberately misled by a man who identifed as a woman into sexual intimacy I can imagine it being seriously traumatic. Just as bad as sexual assault. And that's not addressing how risky it might be to turn a TW down once we were getting down to it, what with their far greater physical strength and aggression.""

I am female and I already knew that statistic but thanks (saying that if I were female I would know a certain statistic is quite frankly ridiculous)

I didn't say that a TW deliberately misleading a lesbian to have sex with them wasn't sexual assault. That is sex by deception. What I was saying was that a TW not disclosing genitals is not sexual assault by itself. Because say a TW is getting at it with a woman; if they don't say they have a penis(although it is quite blaringly obvious for most that they are biologically male) that doesnt mean that they are deliberately misleading the lesbian! How do you know if the TW knows this other woman is a lesbian? What a lot of people are saying is that any TW not disclosing their sex is committing sexual assault. I disagree because say they dont know the other person's sexual orientation; how can they be misleading them if they dont know they are only attracted to the female sex? Personally I don't consider lack of knowledge about the other's genitals a lack of consent; I wouldn't have consented to have sex with my DH if i knew he had (hypothetically) called me a bitch or kissed another woman yesterday, and i would also feel violated, but that's not sexual assault is it?

TacoLover you say But how would you know if it's 'concealing' your sex? Are you essentially saying that it's dishonest to not outright mention your sex? Isn't it obvious what your sex is even if you've transitioned??

And yet you say: According to the vast majority of posters on here, they have a special womanly spidey sense which tells them who is biologically male, and apparently they would be able to use it on any TW (essentially many on here believe that TW can never truly 'pass')

So you're clearly sceptical that lesbians will always be able to identify whether a sexual partner is a woman or a man who identifies as a woman.

You continue: I would disagree with sex by deception because the TW isn't deceiving the person on purpose. They don't have malicious intent to deliberately pretend they have a vagina until they've done oral sex on the lesbian(small minority excluded). If they don't know that the other person is a lesbian then how would they be deceiving them?

If a transwoman is hoping to have sex with a lesbian it is deceptive if the transwoman is aware the lesbian is expecting female anatomy once they're naked. Frankly, if you can't appreciate how traumatic that would be you need to work on your empathy. And your understanding of what sexual orientation means.

Plus, from my own experience, telling a male - however he identifes - that you've changed your mind after things have got hot and steamy is not likely to end well for the woman.

You say: I just personally found it quite frustrating that a TW not disclosing genitals to every person they have sex with being considered sexual assault when I've experienced something much worse and what I went through was dismissed by the authorities.

The fact that you think TW not disclosing genitals to every person they have sex with is frustrating suggests a total lack of respect for your partner's sexual orientation and their right to give informed consent.

If you were a lesbian raped by a TW you'd believed was another lesbian I'd imagine the police would be as much use as a chocolate fireguard, Bowl.

Most rapes aren't reported because victims know they're seldom get prosecuted. That's one of the reasons the argument "but if you get raped in single sex spaces just call the police" boils my piss. Only men think reporting rape is likely to get you somewhere.

This would effectively create a sort of RapeLite™️ Offence in law wouldn’t it? Is that somewhere we want to go? I’m not sure it is. It’s hard enough to get a conviction for rape as it is.

TacoLover, you say:

According to the vast majority of posters on here, they have a special womanly spidey sense which tells them who is biologically male, and apparently they would be able to use it on any TW (essentially many on here believe that TW can never truly 'pass') so if it's so obvious who is male and who isn't, surely they would ask? I just think it's quite patronising to people who have suffered real sexual assault(like me) by saying that a trans person not disclosing their genitals before sex is committing sexual assault.

I'm guessing you're not female. Because if you were - or if you even took a serious interest in women and women's experience - you'd know that <a class="break-all" href="https://amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/feb/08/sexual-assault-women-crime-survey-england-wales-ons-police-figures?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#referrer=www.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">1 in 5 of us will be sexually assaulted.

I've been raped twice. That's sadly not uncommon. If I were a lesbian who found I'd been deliberately misled by a man who identifed as a woman into sexual intimacy I can imagine it being seriously traumatic. Just as bad as sexual assault. And that's not addressing how risky it might be to turn a TW down once we were getting down to it, what with their far greater physical strength and aggression.

For me -

I think it comes down to respect.

I know that gay men like cock. If I ID as a man, it is disrespectful not to mention on dating sites that I have a cunt. It is disresectful to expect gay men to date me / want me / go out with me when I KNOW that I do not meet their SEXUAL orientation.

The whole business about lesbians not wanting to date TW being transphobic shows an utter lack of respect. For lesbians, for boundaries, for SEXuality.

A respectful TW who passes super amazingly well should still not be going after a lesbian without letting them know that they were born male. The women they are pursuing might be OK with that - but it is up to her.

Is it criminal? Not sure.

The aspects I'm more worried about are coercion, shaming, all that stuff, which stays just this side of the law but is absolutely intended to "go on at women" until they are too tired to say NO AKA standard sexual coercion as practiced by men from the teens upwards.

I mean you read threads on here with 50yo men giving it "if you loved me you'd let me stick my cock up your arse" this stuff is standard standard standard and women everywhere recognise if for what it is.

Not to men I think -

They seem to be totally thrown off the path by some tits and big hair

Women OTOH not so easy - we've seen in the recent cases that the women pretending to be men had to go to quite significant lengths (sex only blindfolded for one of them) to keep the charade going.

I think you'd know some of this if you'r read the threads / and maybe looked up some of the things mentioned.

But how would you know if it's 'concealing' your sex? Are you essentially saying that it's dishonest to not outright mention your sex? Isn't it obvious what your sex is even if you've transitioned?? I would disagree with sex by deception because the TW isn't deceiving the person on purpose. They don't have malicious intent to deliberately pretend they have a vagina until they've done oral sex on the lesbian(small minority excluded). If they don't know that the other person is a lesbian then how would they be deceiving them?

Also I didn't mean to suggest that it's some lid of 'rape competition'. I just personally found it quite frustrating that a TW not disclosing genitals to every person they have sex with being considered sexual assault when I've experienced something much worse and what I went through was dismissed by the authorities.

TacoLover, you say sorry haven't had time to read the full thread. Shame, because if you had you would know that
misrepresenting your sex to a sexual partner is an offence. You can get a significant prison sentence for it.

You say: I'm confused here; are you saying that in this scenario the lesbian decided not to have sex after realising that the TW had a penis but the TW decided to rape her anyway? Or are you saying that the TW performed oral sex on her without her knowing that the TW had a penis? Because these two situations are very, very different.

The first is rape, the second sexual assault when there has been the offence of 'sex by deception'. Seven people have been found guilty of this offence in the last decade. Anyone who becomes intimate with someone while concealing something as fundamental as their sex is showing a willingness to entirely discard their partner's consent. It denies their agency and their sexual orientation. It's nasty stuff.

And it can be downright dangerous. A man who has sex with a TW and then finds out he's been intimate with a male may get violent.

I also wonder how we're meant to prove that someone lied about being a virgin. Bloody sheets test? It's all a bit medieval.

I shall have to answer this carefully, "Some Religions ", do require girls to be Virgins ,although a Solicitor and Dr friend has claimed to have helped some women overcome this , and have allegedly arranged travel to London for a , "Hymenplasty " at a well known Private London clinic

so far most legal cases have involved Straight Genetic Girls , supposedly tricking other straight genetic girls into having sex (presumably with a toy ? ) most perpetrators have so far denied they were even lesbians , let alone Trans (F2M in waiting )

Taking a condom off when consent was given for a condom is deemed sexual assault these days.

What bothers me about all this is that there are areas where morally / ethically something is wrong but where is the line into criminal? And we probably all do have different lines.

For eg I would say the police force / people in charge who decided that police officers should form relationships with those they were infiltraitng, to the point of long terms relationships and having children, and then just vanishing when the plug was pulled, leading in some cases for women and children to be searching for these "missing" men is so far wrong as to be criminal somewhere along the line.

However, I don't see lying about being married as being criminal, although it does obviously make you a total shit.

Mixed in with all this is the differential in the sexes, with practical biological reasons + social reasons often "pitting" men and women against each other in het situations, with women cast as the "gatekeepers" of sex, and men as the ones who should try any and all means to break down that gate (but supposing to stop at excessive physical force). With that dynamic in place, everything becomes complicated. Issues of consent between men and women are very complicated.

I think there would be ? around whether such entrenched behaviours vanish when a person decides they are the opposite sex... Do transmen display the levels of male sexual entitlement and feel as comfortable with really quite intense coercion as the average non criminal man? Do trans women lose it (cotton ceiling would suggest not).

All of this married / vasectomy stuff is a red herring.

The issue is, does a person have a right to know the sex of the person they are going to fuck / fucking/ in a relationship with?

The courts have said that women pretending to be men to get sex is bad and put them in prison.
Not seen a similar case with a man pretending to be a woman - I suspect that the more likely situation is with male partners (who seem bizarrely to really equate the trappings of femininity with female as anyone who watched big brother saw! - this is due to the level of objectiifcation) and then it's not the police that end up involved, if anyone is, it's A&E.

I am not sure where I stand on this TBH. It's an interesting topic to explore. Generally the police etc can't even manage to get to grips with the sort of rape that everyone accepts has no grey areas, as a crime, and so I don't hold out much hope for these sort of nuances.

Some posters have been assaulted by people who turned out to have penises when they weren't expected, and they've pressed on.

It's not the done thing to post their names across threads or I would (and they may turn up here yet) but please don't diminish their experiences because of yours. It's not Top Trumps on who has the worst rape story.