Why do LBG align with the T?

From Sandy Draws Badly

Yes wannadance, so many great points, these are my favourite:

Once settled they slowly take over until LGB is no longer about sexual orientation but about feelz. [...]

They jumped on the back of gay oppression and are destroying the LGB from the inside. [...]

How can the LGB community not see the blatent homophobia of people saying biological sex and genitals are irrelevant? [...]

Gay men are described as men who are sexually attracted to other men, so you would therefore assume lesbians are women who are same sex attracted?
But no. Lesbians are now women who are attracted to people of the same gender and 'women' now also includes people with a penis.

Completely homophobic, yet to question it is transphobic?

So the alphabet soup is straight people taking over the LBG then?

www.mtv.co.uk/pride/news/lgbtq-acronym-guide

LGBTQIAPK

"q is for queer
Queer is used as a very inclusive term for anyone in the LGBT+ community. Choosing to identify as ‘queer’ can mean individuals don’t have to belong to a more specific category if they aren’t sure of their sexuality/ gender or simply don’t want any other label! Neat.

i is for intersex
When someone is intersex it means they are born a certain gender but their sexual or reproductive anatomy is from the opposite sex. For example, someone who was born a woman might have genitalia that looks like a mix of both male and female genitalia… or it could be as unnoticeable as equally male and female chromosomes in their DNA.

a is for asexual
When a person is asexual it simply means that they aren’t very sexually attracted to either sex and have a generally low level of interest and desire to take part in sexual activities.

p is for pansexual
When someone is pansexual it means they are attracted to people regardless of their gender. They are attracted to individuals rather than one particular gender or sexuality, and that can be whomever they fancy.

k is for kink
Kink is about those who have kinky fantasies. This could involve BDSM (bondage, discipline and sadomasochism) where sexual fantasies include anything from tying each other up in the bedroom, to altogether more painful activities… If you’ve heard of ‘Fifty Shades of Grey’ (and we’re assuming that you probably have), kink is what sultry Mr. Grey is in to. No matter what you think of the book (or the film), it certainly raised awareness about the kink community.

So there we have it. But there are more letters, more sexualities, and more identities out there – head to stonewall.org.uk to get clued up. But the most important thing to understand, is that whatever sexuality or gender, everyone is equal, and love, really is love."

Agree, why is trans added on? Heterosexuals galore, nothing t9 do with gay or lesbian.

Also why queer ? Surely queer is another word for Lesbian, gay or bisexual, so what on earth does queer mean ?

Because why start your own movement from scratch with such small numbers when you can simply infiltrate one that is already established and respected and has links worldwide.

They also have a fuckload of money which gets a foot in the door with the pretence they are fighting the same fight. Once settled they slowly take over until LGB is no longer about sexual orientation but about feelz.

If this new wave of trans had come out as it's own group there is no way it would've made it this far. They jumped on the back of gay oppression and are destroying the LGB from the inside.

How can the LGB community not see the blatent homophobia of people saying biological sex and genitals are irrelevant?

Stonewall now tell us that cross dressing males with a sexual fetish are trans. They also tell us that these males are now women. Coz they said so.

They also altered wording on things;
Gay men are described as men who are sexually attracted to other men, so you would therefore assume lesbians are women who are same sex attracted?
But no. Lesbians are now women who are attracted to people of the same gender and 'women' now also includes people with a penis.

Completely homophobic, yet to question it is transphobic?

When I started university in 1999, the LGB Society was exactly that. I’m pretty sure when I left three years later the T had been added.

No idea why the T is included. I certainly don’t use the acronym anymore - I now use gay and lesbian. I find trans ideology very disturbing and I despair at the loss of a generation of young gay and lesbian people - especially a generation of baby butches. I know it’s not fashionable - but I would happily jettison the T.

T - transsexual
T - transvestite

2 different types of people. One T is very vocal and the loudest voice/action gets attention.

I have no idea what exactly Q actually is.
I = intersex? 0.05-1.7% of the population (depending in whose figures you use).

New Statesman article by Sarah Ditum:
'Why were lesbians protesting at Pride? Because the LGBT coalition leaves women behind
Misogyny doesn’t vanish at the flicker of a rainbow.'

(extract)
"To understand this reversal, you need to understand why these women were protesting in the first place, and how their message slams headlong into the most intractable divide in today’s LGBT movement. The group, which calls itself Get the L Out, carried banners proclaiming “lesbian not queer”, “lesbian = female homosexual” and “transactivism erases lesbians”. For Stonewall, which has made trans inclusion a central part of its renewed mission since Hunt took over in 2014, this was beyond the pale. Stonewall’s position can be summed up in one of its popular T-shirt slogans: “Some people are trans. Get over it.” Get the L Out was resolutely failing to get over it.

It wasn’t just Stonewall that condemned the protesters. Pink News and the Guardian called them “anti-trans”. On Twitter, the protesters were called “terfs” – trans exclusionary radical feminists – an epithet that is frequently accompanied by violent threats and dehumanising rhetoric. Pride apologised for their presence. If the mark of successful direct action is getting your message out, Get the L Out failed. Never mind assessing if their grievance was legitimate – most of the coverage failed even to describe what it was.

Yet criticising the brand of trans activism prominent on social media and in university feminist societies was always going to be unpopular. When discussing modern gender politics, anything more complex than the “get over it” line leads to charges of bigotry, violence and even – at the most hyperbolic end – genocide. (Not recognising someone’s innate gender identity is the same as denying their humanity, and could lead to suicide, runs the reasoning.)" continues

www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2018/07/why-were-lesbians-protesting-pride-because-lgbt-coalition-leaves-women

Getting the "L out" of the alphabet was the main point of the Pride protest - as well as protesting "re-defining Lesbian" (as any male who claims to be, even with his lady penis).

The alphabet was always male-dominated. And it always included drag queens and transsexuals. So I gather the (heterosexual) transgenders thought they could infiltrate and take over the alphabet orgs. And they did.

Finally a few of the gay men and transsexuals are speaking out, but they remained silent while these attacks (eg Cotton Ceiling) went on.

The T should have been kicked out a long time ago. Well, never invited in really.

Not sure if you're already aware (and that's what you're referencing in your post) but there are actual attempts being made to add "kink" to the LGBT lineup too...

I have been wondering how the increasingly used umbrella term 'Queer' may obfuscate as well as creating a very powerful group identity.

Lyla Cicero comment:
'What Do All Those Letters Mean, Anyway? Defining LGBTQIAPK'
People often ask me “what do all those letters stand for, anyway?” I’m not quite sure why they ask me, since most don’t know I belong in that alphabet soup somewhere. But they ask, and I’m glad, because I think they should know. However, there is a part of me that’s annoyed by the question, and thinks, “come on, people, keep up, it’s not rocket science.” Of course, there are those who don’t know “what all those letters stand for” because they don’t want to, due to ignorance or hatred. But there are also well-meaning allies who are having a hard time keeping up. Hell, there are a whole bunch of folks who fit within that list of letters, or a longer one we haven’t come up with yet, who don’t even know it. It is confusing. It should be. That list of letters keeps growing and growing because the variations in human sexuality and gender identity are infinite. We probably need the whole alphabet to cover them.

I have this fantasy that one day when there are more of us who fit under the “queer” umbrella than don’t, it will finally be clear that we are all “sexual minorities.”

This is not at all to diminish the experience of people who have to live, openly or not, as sexual minorities in our culture right now. But perhaps the reason they are in the “minority” is because of how many others are still closeted in various ways. How many people must be out there who have never spent much time considering their sexual orientations or gender identities due to compulsory heterosexuality, compulsory gender-normativity, and/or compulsory sexual vanilla-ism in our culture? And how many simply don’t fit labels our culture has yet produced?" (continues)

www.rolereboot.org/sex-and-relationships/details/2012-06-what-do-all-those-letters-mean-anyway-defining-lgbtq

lumping in a bunch of disparate issues with LGB creates a hugely uneasy sense of "normals" and "everything else"

It's the equivalent of say for example the Church of England creating a catch-all grouping for every other religion and giving them a group abbreviation based in their initials... "Oh this person represents the JAMBASH* community. We need to listen to their needs and support their march. Right on"

*Jewish, Atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, Agnostic, Sikh, Hindu..

Oops I wonder why they can't all just play nicely and agree on EVERYTHING...

Big pharm saw a huge business opportunity to commercialise distress to their advantage. They found a stalking horse and fiundef all the LGBT associations plus medical research with contracts that have t&cs biased to promoting trans.

Psychopaths always target poorly law enforced jurisdictions / or create new ones that are beyond the law or weakly legislated for - they know how to stay beyond the law

@DJLippy Not sure if you're already aware (and that's what you're referencing in your post) but there are actual attempts being made to add "kink" to the LGBT lineup too...

Agree with pp below who said lumping in a bunch of disparate issues with LGB creates a hugely uneasy sense of "normals" and "everything else".

I think there is an attempt by 'queers' to conflate kink with sexuality - hence the alphabet soup! I am a long time fan of the Savage Love Cast which is an agony Aunt show for the LGBT/ kink community. Before I got switched on to queer politics I did notice that many callers had started calling themselves 'queer' - despite being in heterosexual relationships. It drove me insane! It was great getting more political and realizing I was not alone in my frustration.

Being gay does not mean being kinky. I stopped coming out as bi because, as a woman, it just invites over-sexualisation. The LBG fought for many years to say - we're not kinkster's - we just fall in love with members of the same sex! This sets back that project. Being kinky is fine (we're all kinsters really) It's not G A Y though....

How is aromatic a sexuality?

I think the "bundling" was really accelerated by well-meaning employers wanting to demonstrate their "right on" credentials. It never made any sense to me.

Agree that bundling them all together is bizarre. I was involved in a lesbian group in the early 90s in NE England. At that time lesbians very much kept to themselves and although lesbians went to gay clubs they often had different nights to the men or didn't socialise with the men. Trans was a very very minority thing then and definitely wasn't part of the lesbian scene. Trying to bunch everyone together seems very right wing to me in a sort of "they're all perverts let's class them all together" sort of way, or a "there are normal heterosexuals and then everyone else" definition. Some male homosexuals I know are pleasant blokes who get on fine with women, others have seemed to enjoy mocking women and female anatomy and would have zilch in common with any women especially lesbians.

I had a similar argument with a gay mate after Pride when I saw him use the terf word. I was so disappointed because he's lovely and I know he's not a raving misogynist or radical or anything. His argument was - gay men are much worse than trans folk - why single them out for rebuke? Go after gay men!

I have noticed a huge amount of misogynist within the gay community. Just look into the Hampstead Ponds debacle for starters. It appears to be something no one wants to address.

Recently had an argument with a gay friend who was criticizing the lesbian protest at Pride. He told me I shouldn't speak on "queer issues". I asked him what the fuck trans has to do with him? If a trans woman is a woman who is attracted to men then "she" is heterosexual. Nothing queer about it.

There is a deliberate conflation of sex, gender and sexual orientation and I stand by the fact that there is more to all of this and it is fucking sinister.

I heard Sheila Jefferey speak about this issue as related to the Yogyakarta Principles.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3228002-Yogyakarta-principles

To paraphrase because gay men in other countries often present in a very feminine manner (think of the Hijra in India) bundling trans rights into a platform with gay rights protects gay men in these cultures - even though in many cases these rights conflict with women and lesbian rights.

Check out this video for more info, also featuring the indomitable Lisa Muggeridge, Nicole Jones and Magdalen Berns

www.facebook.com/DRradfem/videos/2157764721109127/?q=we%20need%20to%20talk&filters_interacted_posts=%7B%22name%22%3A%22interacted_posts%22%2C%22args%22%3A%22%22%7D

Also, I would say - follow the money. I imagine there is a hell of a lot of money to be made selling lesbian sex toys for to middle aged IT consultants called Steve. Who has more money? 86% of austerity cuts have fallen on women.

Can I ask why they should be separated?
To me it just seems like an arbitrary bundling of groups that have very different needs and motivations. Having them artificially aggregated into a single "movement" creates more opportunity for conflict and rivalry than support.

November 2016 Miranda Yardley comment:
'Ma Vie En Rose: Ruth Hunt’s Rose-Tinted Trans*Goggles and the anti-Woman Politics of Stonewall'
(extract)
"I first spoke with Stonewall’s Ruth Hunt just over three years ago when the organisation announced it would be engaging with the transgender community. This resulted in the forming of the Stonewall Trans Advisory Group, you know that motley crew of transgender tyrants, including the self-styled (styled as if it were 1973) answer for any heterosexual woman who wishes to bring out her ‘inner lesbian’, Alex ‘Beardy’ Drummond. cheeky wink

Ruth, bless her fighting heart, has been defending transgender activists to an extraordinary degree, indeed there appears to be no transgression she cannot overlook with her inbuilt sense of forgiveness which seems divine in breadth and depth. She has embraced the very dogma that makes real life discussion, debate and compromise with transgenderists impossible, dogma which positions the interests of the T in ‘LGBT’ in opposition to anyone who considers biological sex to be important in any material way: trans women are women, no debate, end of.

Quite aside from it being cruel to humour delusional claims of one being something one is not, positioning one’s acceptance of an individual on a lie is outright dishonest. And anyway, what is a lesbian and gay group doing when it considers the thoughts and feelings of personal identity more important than the reality of our sexed bodies?" (continues)

mirandayardley.com/en/ma-vie-en-rose-ruth-hunts-rose-tinted-transgoggles-and-the-anti-woman-politics-of-stonewall/

I think gay man are often just as misogonistic as straight men, sometimes more and they often don't particularly care about women or lesbian rights tbh. Interestingly lots of gay men I know have displayed a massive amount of homophobia against lesbians. Maybe because they feel lesbians have always had it easier? Although I disagree.

I think originally it was because they both don't follow your traditional gender stereotypes. I also think that often 'T' enjoy being an 'other', and LGB are obviously a prominent 'other' catagory. I think that's a huge part of why some people because Trans, the men I know who have transitioned have all been people who perhaps weren't as popular at school and like to be part of an opressed group to explain why people didn't like them as much. So I think joining the LGB movement adds to that for those people.

I think it's been together so long now, that when gay and lesbian people hear views opposing TRAs they see that as against them, as homophobia, and it can take a lot for them to change their mind. In some cases, as gay men won't be affected by a lot of it because they are men they will never change their mind because they don't particularly care about misogyny or women's rights in the same way lots of straight men don't.

There's a general suspicion that once Section 28 was gone & gay marriage had happened, Stonewall needed a new reason for existence & the T was it.

Lesbians were redefined in the process.