Letter from feminists against Pride protest

Notbadconsidering and Mogleflop have said everything there is to say on the whole issue. Thanks for these excellent posts.

There are feminists and lesbians who have alternative viewpoints.

There are people who call themselves feminists and lesbians who have alternative viewpoints.

There. Fixed that for you. If you aren't working for the liberation of women from patriarchy, you aren't a feminist. If you aren't a female homosexual, you aren't a lesbian.

Today I identify as a Christian who doesn't believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God. See how it works?

HTH

@Snappity

So in summary of the claims on this thread by those opposing this letter

• Trans women are not women
• The feminists who wrote the letter are not feminists
• One poster even suggested that the lesbians who wrote the letter are not lesbians

Spot a pattern?

__

I don't think you'd like the pattern most posters are spotting.

hand shoots up Hermione Grainger style

I do spot a pattern Snappity!!

It’s women speaking out in unison against the redefining of the words used to describe us!

Do I get a prize?

Brilliant post notbadconsidering

I would also add that I have NEVER heard a lesbian say they identify as a lesbian, not once.

Feminists can disagree with anyone (and themselves) and frequently do.

There's no such thing as a unified feminist consciousness after all, just many individuals with a shared broad idea - that women should be liberated from the stupid stuff in society that consciously or unconsciously puts them lower than men.

The problem here is how you define women and lesbians.

Our position is broadly that:

• Women are the human mortals who are biologically born into a body of the female sex; you can't feel or become female or male, you just are

• Sex isn't ascribed to babies by medics, it's just "there" in some form. Sex cannot be changed.

• Society treats sexes differently. This leads to gender stereotypes, which are societal constructs. Some of them seem to have been born out of historical patterns ("women give birth to babies and keep them alive, better with children and at home; men in fields with livestock, better at science and politics"), some out of preferences ("pink is a boy's colour; now it's a girl's"). Gender is changeable.

• Lesbians, by definition, are women who are attracted to other women. This isn't cruelty at men who wish they were women, but yes it is exclusionary, that's the point. If a lesbian enjoys penises, by definition she's not a lesbian anymore. Still a person who enjoys sex with women, but not lesbian.

• Women who hate the "feeling" of being a woman and want to be a man, will always be women biologically, and probably have been socialised a certain way too. And the same with men vice-versa.

So that's where posters here often come from.

If you believe that womanhood is a sensation or a feeling, and that anyone can be one, it's really difficult for us to have meaningful conversations - because that basic underlying premise determines all the rest of the logical arguments. We say "women" and you think "bigots".

But on that note, it's really hard to know what trans means and I think we sometimes talk at cross-purposes in what we mean there too. What qualifies after all? When do you become trans? Is it the moment of declaration? Social transition? Medical transition?

If you say that "woman is a feeling" then:

• How do you distinguish between someone with agonising gender dysphoria, someone with a kind of fetish, or someone who's jumping on a bandwagon to attention-seek?

• How do you protect vulnerable young people from mislabelling themselves thanks to messages like "if you're not feminine than you're a man" and ending up infertile? (I'm thinking of autistic kids like me especially here, but it's not limited to them).

• How do you assign medical resources to help those desperately asking for it, when others say it's not a medical or mental health issue?

• How do you protect women in general from men who are just out for a good old sexual kick? I've seen posts like "that's not a real transwomen then" in response to cases where men identifying as women have done shitty things; but then what on earth is?

• How do you help actually biologically born women to fight inherent sexism and reach equality, when people born as men can take opportunities like scholarships, sports, refuges, and more - because it validates something inside them?

Sorry, this has turned into an epically long post, and I'm not even sure if you'll bother reading it, but I don't want you to think we're all just random lunatics dead set against transpeople or something @MillyTheKid.

We're against male rights activists who are riding roughshod over all of us in the name of transactivism.

So in summary of the claims on this thread by those opposing this letter

• Trans women are not women
• The feminists who wrote the letter are not feminists
• One poster even suggested that the lesbians who wrote the letter are not lesbians

Spot a pattern?

I read a piece by a SJW recently who described himself as a cis queer white male who identifies as fat.

He was morbidly obese. I am not sure how identifying as fat works in that context.

Agree, busyboysmum. All this redefining words until they mean everything and therefore nothing, really pisses me off. Can't these people look beyond their woke inclusiviness to actually do a risk assesment on the consequences of these changes?

Excellent post NotBadConsidering. Agreed.

This letter starts by acknowledging the issues raised by the protesters do in fact exist. Yes, the broader LGBTQIA+ umbrella houses people with deeply problematic views, misogyny and lesbophobia among them.

But it then goes on a ramble conflating lots of different issues to minimise and dismiss the experiences of women. How original

I suppose as nowadays the meaning of words has been changed to include anyone who identifies as such then if they identify as feminists they may well think they are.

But this renders the words meaningless anyone. If everyone can identify as a lesbian then there is no meaningful definition of the word.

But I agree that from my viewpoint women who gang up with men to denounce women are not feminists.

Women who centre males in their feminism are not feminists.

Anyone else tired of the phrase "identify as?" People I know who are gay don't say, "I identify as gay." They just are. My friends who are Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, atheists, etc. just state "I am a Christian or I am Hindu."

Would a doctor inspire confidence in her patients if she said, "I identify as a surgeon." Would you really let her operate on you? If the cop pulling you over said, "I identify as a police officer," would you allow him to put you in handcuffs? The phrase inherently suggests something might not be legitimate, possibly a sham.

Our language has been corrupted and it has meaning and consequence. We have to take it back.

Homosexual females ARE lesbians, they don't "identify" as them.

Excellent post NotBadConsidering

I’m also keen to know how males who identify as female are an essential component of feminism.

Me too. What, exactly, is the positive contribution they make to the lives of women and girls?

Fantastic post Notbadconsidering

How can they be feminists if they would see the removal of safe spaces and rights for women and girls?

“Perhaps the situation isn't quite so black and white as people here would like to believe.“

There are “black and white” issues: some of us want to retain single sex services and facilities.

Not to be called “cis”.

And don’t think women should be criticised or harassed for not wishing to share facilities and services or have sex with people with penises.

Great post NotBadConsidering

Trans women are an essential part of an intersectional and successful feminist struggle.

Really? In what way are they essential?

Its*

Let's break it down:

many of whom identify as lesbian

Straight away there's a conflict. The protest argues you can't identify as a lesbian. A lesbian is a female homosexual. Clearly those attached to the statement don't believe so. Ergo they are immediately in conflict.

All of us are active in the arts, community organising, the media and education.

How is this relevant?

We have all benefited from the deep analysis, radical lifestyle and astonishing bravery of the lesbian feminists who came before us

"...but we're about to ignore all that in the rest of this statement."

However, these views are expressed by many different people, cis, non-binary and trans. There was almost no mention of this. So we can only read this protest as a deliberate attack on trans women.

So the authors acknowledge the abuse but it is more important to them to put the blame on the lesbians for blaming the wrong people in their eyes? Are they saying they are in a better position than the lesbians themselves to tell us who is dishing out the abuse? And again, it wasn't an attack on trans people. It was a protest against the trans activists who are abusive.

It isn’t trans women who...[followed by various examples of bad behaviour]

No but it is trans activists who are responsible for "the cotton ceiling" and all it's associated public musings on the internet:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3294339-cotton-ceiling-evidence-thread

Lesbian feminists of all genders
small group of cis lesbians

Again, statements in conflict with the definition of lesbian, at the heart of the protestors' concerns.

in order to spread the same kind of dangerous lies about Trans women.

Not dangerous lies about trans women. Truth about what certain trans activists say to lesbians. Gaslighting. It's as if these people deny that people like Riley Dennis exist.

The irony is that the protestors failed to point out these obvious and active factors in the continued, structural oppression of women, trans and queer people here and abroad.

This is after the ramblings about G4 etc. So it would have been worthwhile if they'd have protested about all of the problems with Pride?! Organise your own protest about this sort of stuff if it's such a big deal!

Instead they hijacked a moment in which a vital yet threatened public service, the NHS, on its 70th anniversary, was leading from the front.

People have marched specifically for the NHS recently. I highly doubt this sets back the NHS when it was just one component of a non-NHS specific march. Besides, what is a protest supposed to do? They have to get themselves noticed. Would the authors had been happy for them to be in front of the NHS marchers if they had been protesting "obvious and active factors in the continued, structural oppression of women, trans and queer people here and abroad"? Make your bloody minds up.

we are here to remind the protesters that you can’t pick and choose your history

Interesting turn of phrase, given the historical definition of lesbian is being picked at and history is being revised with people being retroactively trans-identified.

There are many campaigns and acts of solidarity we can be engaged in, including

Oh yes, look after everyone else's rights but don't you dare stand up for your own rights. It's just not inclusive enough.

I would genuinely want to know if every single signature on that letter fully agrees with and would happily release the statement "a lesbian can have a penis. Any lesbian who refuses to have sex with someone with a penis is transphobic and a vagina fetishist". It would make their position a lot clearer and get rid of all the bull in between. Because a disagreement on this is what it fundamentally comes down to if you actually pay attention to the concerns of those women protesting.

In fact, no true feminist

Surely no one who actually believes that a man is a woman is a feminist. Feminists can have sympathy for men and women with sex dysphoria but none would sign up to this identity bullshit.

The signatories of this letter are as much feminists as I am a brain surgeon.

Hint - if you’re allying with men to speak out against women who have defended their rights you are literally the opposite of a feminist. You are a men’s rights activist.

There are feminists and lesbians who have alternative viewpoints.

I guess. On the one hand females who are pro-women (ie feminists), and some of those will be lesbians. On the other hand, females who will happily work alongside men to undermine the above.

Pick a side.

If your use of lesbian includes people with a penis then we are never going to agree on their alternative views.