Letter from feminists against Pride protest

Tatty hope you feel better after sleep.

Well the links are there, loads of them but I've also heard it from the horses mouth of a handmaiden!

It's interesting your friend doesn't believe you, does he think you are making it up?

Look up Riley J Dennis.

But I would really recommend you watch this instead...

It explains why this is so dangerous.

This one is good too.

FirstlyTattyI'd say it is none of your male friend's business who lesbians sleep with. I very much doubt he would like me suggesting that I, as a middle aged women, would be a nice partner for him if I identified as a male or that he would be transphobic to deny me access to his dating pool!

My friend is not suggesting that lesbians should sleep with anyone other than who they want to.

He is confused by what I have told him about the transgroup who are suggesting that they are women and so are eligible (sorry couldn't find a better word- just got home from a long shift so brain is dead) to sleep with lesbians. I have tried to look for news stories on line to back up what I have said but other than on MN I can't find anything on Google.

I'll look for some links on MN threads in the morning. Thanks

@TattyTshirt Mon

'ItalianGreyhound. Thanks for the link. I'm not lesbian but I have a male friend who is gay. He does not believe me that lesbians are having a tough time from transwomen.'

Firstly Tatty I'd say it is none of your male friend's business who lesbians sleep with. I very much doubt he would like me suggesting that I, as a middle aged women, would be a nice partner for him if I identified as a male or that he would be transphobic to deny me access to his dating pool!

Secondly 'I couldn't find anything online that even suggests this is an issue.' there appears to lots on line, you just need to know where to look.

'I apologise if the word 'transwomen' is not allowed. I have no idea of what other word I can use to distinguish them from 'women'. Should I call transwomen women and real women cis women?' You'll need to decide how to answer this yourself but for me, woman is just fine, I am an adult human female. Like a number of other people I tend to use the word female now, because that is true of me, has always been true, even when I was a girl.

At the end of the day I have heard people directly saying that women should not exclude anyone from their dating pool. This is bullshit. Women and men can do as they please in their private, dating, romantic and sexual lives. It's nothing to do with others who we include or exclude.

drive.google.com/drive/folders/13vfYxPdJ-HeeLfk_EDg9fR9lUx2NFWpd

Oh shit I didn't realize you had to be a lesbian to sign it! Oh well, my intentions were good.

TattyTshirt the word "cis" is one of the words MNHQ discourages because,. among other things, it suggests that everyone has a gender identity (and lots of Mumsnetters don't). It's not banned precisely (you can use it about yourself) but not to define others.

As for Self-ID, it's still very much live - and up for grabs. Women here are campaigning against it. I suggest you look among the threads on Feminism Chat if you want to know more. There's a lot going on.

"Cotton Ceiling" evidence thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3294339-cotton-ceiling-evidence-thread

Send him some of the links on this.

ItalianGreyhound. Thanks for the link. I'm not lesbian but I have a male friend who is gay. He does not believe me that lesbians are having a tough time from transwomen. Or should I say the new age transwomen? The women with penises, rather than the women who have undergone hormone treatment and surgery.

I couldn't find anything online that even suggests this is an issue.

That petition will do nicely.

I know I read something, earlier this year, about Corbyn agreeing that transwomen, who self ID, are women. Was there ever any law passed that transwomen who self ID are able to access female spaces? Or is it still undecided?

I apologise if the word 'transwomen' is not allowed. I have no idea of what other word I can use to distinguish them from 'women'. Should I call transwomen women and real women cis women?

I was born female and identify as a woman - because I am a woman. I don't understand why suddenly men are women whilst women can no longer be called women. It doesn't make sense to me.

Would love to sign the petition but I'm not a lesbian. I've slept with four women so I qualify as bisexual, I suppose. But I'm essentially heterosexual. Shame I can't show solidarity, but words mean something.

Anyone else seen this petition... Lesbians have had enough!

Orpheliac

The whole thing was yet another demonstration to me that in order to support this stuff you really need to not actually be understanding the issue and what's at stake. The thing is this is often due to not wanting to face that, ie. it's willful. I think often it's those who don't think that they have anything much to lose so just ignore all the issues so they can essentially virtue signal, and then they just frame any challenge as bullying.

Agreed.

Sandy Draws Badly. Sums up the situation.

IamtheOrpheliac - I echo what the others have said. There is welcoming space for you here.

Yup, I agree, this is distressing for all of us and I made that point to her too before she went. The whole thing was yet another demonstration to me that in order to support this stuff you really need to not actually be understanding the issue and what's at stake. The thing is this is often due to not wanting to face that, ie. it's willful. I think often it's those who don't think that they have anything much to lose so just ignore all the issues so they can essentially virtue signal, and then they just frame any challenge as bullying.

Oh, and well done, leyat, for trying with her.

Then she said she felt bullied and wanted to deactivate her account.

The thing is she was just getting reasonable tweets like mines, challenging her position, a position she could not defend, and they were not great in number either, but I didn't push anything with her as she then said she has MH issues so I just told her to take care of herself.

I am so heartily sick of people like Stella Duffy who make grand public statements about how mean gender-crit feminists are, who parade their rape apologism (which directly hurts those women whose experiences they are flat-out denying) and who put back the progress of women's rights by 50 years, but when they are called out on it, however gently and respectfully, cry about how vulnerable and fragile they are and run away.

Many of us have had times of fragile mental health, not helped by the ongoing death threats, rape threats, gaslighting and threats to our livelihoods made to us by transactivists, never mind the constant threat of having our spaces invaded and colonised by abusive, entitled males, but somehow our mental health doesn't matter and we should just suck it up. Funny how that works, isn't it?

Bloody hell, Orpheliac. I am so sorry he did that to you.

Hugs I am orthp to u

Same stuff same men sometimes they just wear differen5 clothes

IamtheOrpheliac I am so sorry. . Straight women like me can never speak for lesbians but you have our support.

Please tell us how we can help to turn this tide. I know straight women who are celibate, whatever reason any woman wants to say no to any kind of sex ever, that is enough. (Same for men too, of course).

And I can't believe anyone would minimise any person's experiences ever. Who cares if not all trans women are like that, you still have every right always to exclude anyone you want to from your private, romantic or sex life.

That's awful, Orpheliac. I'm so sorry.

I know 2 men who have openly stated in what was otherwise a pleasant conversation that they don't know anyone who was abused as a child. Neither comment was in context or appropriate, and the only logical explanation was that their comments were aimed at the women they were with.

Yanno that thing where men don't know any women who have been raped or any rapists because no women they know trusts them enough to tell them?
The same appears to be true with regard to transgenders and Lesbians.

That’s awful Orpheliac, I am so sorry you went through that.