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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans activsim's appropriation of intersex

67 replies

SunsetBeetch · 13/07/2018 13:10

Saw this excellent thread on twitter today. Lots of interesting information.

So that's women, children, transexuals and intersex people getting trampled over by TRAs. Who will be next?

OP posts:
Offred · 13/07/2018 18:01

Well I’ll add; ‘the nhs is wrong about medical conditions’ and ‘science is wrong about sex’ to ‘the EHR commission is wrong about the law’ and anything else I’m sure you’ve said about this stuff...

Lots of letters you will be writing...

Lots of superior knowledge you must have...

MistressDeeCee · 13/07/2018 17:55

Intersex

That was a strange autocorrect...

MistressDeeCee · 13/07/2018 17:55

Intersectionality want to be left out if this debacle Snappity. It's not up to you to try to change their narrative and you're not informed enough anyway.

LangCleg · 13/07/2018 17:54

I have previously requested that Snappity does not engage directly with me on this forum for similar reasons. I would like to reiterate that now. I do not believe engagement is helpful to either party. All the best and go well.

gendercritter · 13/07/2018 17:41

Sexual attributes form a dimorphic distribution. Were sex truly binary, this would be a binary distribution. Sex, scientifically, is a spectrum.

I'm sorry but only if you take into account errors of biology. To be intersex is to have had something go wrong. Sex is binary.

And thank you for clarifying your partner is trans. It helps me empathise or at least understand somewhat the rigidity of your position.

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 13/07/2018 17:40

OK, you're clearly in a vulnerable state, and I will no longer engage with you.

I didn't realise that Snappity was in a vulnerable state - I think this is a wise move.

Snappity - I will also no longer engage with you for that reason. Go Well.

jellyfrizz · 13/07/2018 17:37

Also there's increasing evidence of a genetic basis for gender dysphoria (which makes it an intersex condition).

How does that make it an intersex condition?

SuburbanRhonda · 13/07/2018 17:37

It is a shame snappity isn’t able to share whether they are intersex in the sense that the medical establishment understands it, or trans.

Because as we know, language is very important to TRAs and without clear language and definitions, nothing can be meaningfully discussed around this topic because no one really knows what anyone else means when they say words.

Snappity · 13/07/2018 17:26

You are rather clutching at straws here. 13 people in all.

This study also has some limitations. First, because the subjects were of Han Chinese origin, the results cannot be generalized to all populations. Second, the study was performed in only 9 FtMs and 4 MtFs. Therefore, similar studies using larger numbers of patients are necessary.

Why are you getting hung-up on sample size? The quoted p-value for the enrichment in the trans men was 2.4E-10.

That they were Han makes this more interesting because few studies have been undertaken on Chinese populations. The real relevance of the study is finding genetic enrichment associated with gender dysphoria off chromosome 23 which suggests our knowledge of the genetic basis of sex is poor and that biological sex has components from multiple chromosomes

UpstartCrow · 13/07/2018 17:17

OK, you're clearly in a vulnerable state, and I will no longer engage with you.

Snappity · 13/07/2018 17:13

Please also note this is not the NHS saying gender dysphoria is an intersex condition, as is often claimed.

Disagree.

Please also note the existence of DSDs, or comorbidity with gender dysphoria, does not mean sex is not binary or that gender identity is biologically based.

Of course it does. Sexual attributes form a dimorphic distribution. Were sex truly binary, this would be a binary distribution. Sex, scientifically, is a spectrum.

Imnobody4 · 13/07/2018 17:13

Snappity
You are rather clutching at straws here. 13 people in all.

This study also has some limitations. First, because the subjects were of Han Chinese origin, the results cannot be generalized to all populations. Second, the study was performed in only 9 FtMs and 4 MtFs. Therefore, similar studies using larger numbers of patients are necessary.

Offred · 13/07/2018 17:10

Snappity, there is ‘a genetic basis’ to everything most likely... What does that actually prove?

And I notice we’re back to citing an op ed from nature... 🙄

UglyCathKidstonBag · 13/07/2018 17:09

Snappity you have (as Offred has clearly shown) misunderstood what the NHS are saying. The NHS in no way conflates the two in neither description, treatment or medication.

It is hard to discuss this with you when you find yourself unable (understandably some might say) to discuss your condition. You can keep flinging “BUT I AM THIS SO I KNOW MORE” around then refusing to discuss or naming yourself the authority because in fact you aren’t.
Can we ask at which age your DSD came to light or was diagnosed and if you have a formal diagnosis?

Snappity · 13/07/2018 17:06

Also there's increasing evidence of a genetic basis for gender dysphoria (which makes it an intersex condition). See for example www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-08655-x. This study found a correlation between RYR3 and trans men within an Han population.

R0wantrees · 13/07/2018 17:00

I don't feel you've been especially respectful Snappity

Snappity · 13/07/2018 16:59

Ok well I must state it seems most likely from how you are describing yourself that you are in fact trans. Which is fine - there is nothing wrong with being yourself. If I am wrong, I have no other information to go on to understand the truth.

I have told you that I am intersex, please respect that. I have a trans partner.

Offred · 13/07/2018 16:58

It is worth noting that the NHS indentifies intersex conditions as a cause of gender dysphoria www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/ and that the rest of the potential causes are all intersex too. So before we get people saying that intersex and transsexuality should not be conflated, the NHS does and, as an intersex woman, I don't see a big distinction between the two (although there is between intersex and things like transvestite).

Yes, it is easy to understand why being intersex might increase your risk of suffering gender dysphoria.

Please note this is not the NHS ‘conflating intersex and transsexuality’, this is the NHS stating these two conditions may be comorbid.

Please also note this is not the NHS saying intersex is a type of transgenderism as is often claimed.

Please also note this is not the NHS saying gender dysphoria is an intersex condition, as is often claimed.

Please also note the existence of DSDs, or comorbidity with gender dysphoria, does not mean sex is not binary or that gender identity is biologically based.

That often cited nature article has been thoroughly debunked over and over again. So please stop posting it as evidence of a big development in science which has ‘found’ that sex is actually a spectrum, the spectrum is the spectrum within intersex conditions not a spectrum of sex.

jellyfrizz · 13/07/2018 16:30

It is intersex if any of the biological aspects of sex are not aligned

Can you explain what you mean by this?

R0wantrees · 13/07/2018 16:13

Are you aware of Dr Az Hakeem Snappity ?

gendercritter · 13/07/2018 16:12

Ok well I must state it seems most likely from how you are describing yourself that you are in fact trans. Which is fine - there is nothing wrong with being yourself. If I am wrong, I have no other information to go on to understand the truth.

R0wantrees · 13/07/2018 16:12

Yesterday, I started reading a recently published book, 'Trans: Exploring Gender Identity & Dysphoria- a guide for everyone (including professonals)' edited by Dr Az Hakeem.

www.drazhakeem.com

He has written the introductory chapters.
(The definition of sex and gender are shown in the free access below)

Source:
www.amazon.co.uk/TRANS-Exploring-Identity-Dysphoria-Pulling/dp/1911246496?tag=mumsnetforum-21

Trans activsim's appropriation of intersex
Trans activsim's appropriation of intersex
Snappity · 13/07/2018 16:03

I would also highly recommend this thread - which totally demolishes the idea of sex being a 'spectrum'.

It definitely doesn't. Sex has many attributes which don't always align.

Snappity · 13/07/2018 15:58

You have mentioned on several threads that you are intersex. Which condition do you have if you are happy saying? Or were you what some term 'amab' but consider yourself to be female and that is makes you intersex? It would be very useful in terms of further understand your position to tell what the truth is.

I am not comfortable sharing. Mumsnet has had data leaks.

TheGoddessFrigg · 13/07/2018 15:53

twitter.com/TriciaFrasman/status/1006161802823159809

I would also highly recommend this thread - which totally demolishes the idea of sex being a 'spectrum'.