Looking for a neutral summary on trans issues

We all have problems with those types. That at least is common ground,, I think.

Can you explain what you mean by this?

Snappity Also if gender not sex is paramount aren't you being rather sweeping about men vs women. If your position were to be upheld, why would a transwoman be 'safer'/'more at home' in a space coded as 'female'? For all you know on the day/time/place in question the 'women' in the space labelled 'women' might all be innately male and therefore dangerous. Conversely if there is a corresponding space coded 'male' it's entirely theoretically possible that the 'men' in that space on that day/time are predominantly 'female', but again because of their inability to access their innate gender just don't know it. Since you assume that all of us have gendered identity, those of us on here who deny it presumably just aren't in touch enough with our feelings? Then it follows that we may enter the 'wrong' spaces for our gender. Although you don't really think that do you? Because it's sexed women whose spaces you are trying to invade and you're assuming that all women who are 'sexed women' and don't disavow it must be innately female.
It's a double-standard 'gender identity' can't be questioned or extrapolated from particular material factors if a trans person asserts it but it can be imposed independently when it comes to 'sexed women'.

There is a fair point in there but trans people are still a minority

Snappity also what about GNC people where do they fit into all this? If we take them into account then unisex spaces are the only solution, then we have a problem both for women and for trans people. It becomes a safe space for no one.

You might have no qualms about sharing a space with the sterotypical timid and unobstrusive post-operative transexual. You might feel different about challenging the chap hovering around the hand-dryer, with a crumpled suit, five o'clock shadow, no wig and a slash of lipstick. And he's left the seat up!

We all have problems with those types. That at least is common ground,, I think.

Snappity Also if gender not sex is paramount aren't you being rather sweeping about men vs women. If your position were to be upheld, why would a transwoman be 'safer'/'more at home' in a space coded as 'female'? For all you know on the day/time/place in question the 'women' in the space labelled 'women' might all be innately male and therefore dangerous. Conversely if there is a corresponding space coded 'male' it's entirely theoretically possible that the 'men' in that space on that day/time are predominantly 'female', but again because of their inability to access their innate gender just don't know it. Since you assume that all of us have gendered identity, those of us on here who deny it presumably just aren't in touch enough with our feelings? Then it follows that we may enter the 'wrong' spaces for our gender. Although you don't really think that do you? Because it's sexed women whose spaces you are trying to invade and you're assuming that all women who are 'sexed women' and don't disavow it must be innately female.
It's a double-standard 'gender identity' can't be questioned or extrapolated from particular material factors if a trans person asserts it but it can be imposed independently when it comes to 'sexed women'.

You ask what relevance SEX has wrt fitting rooms?

No. I questioned the relevance of the aspects of sex you choose to highlight have something like a changing room.

Hi Apple Cider

You say: I wouldn't personally feel threatened by a trans woman using the ladies'. But I'd feel bad for them if they had to go into the men's in women's clothes - that sounds risky, given what we know about toxic masculinity.

At least two issues with this
(1) When a feminine man feels threatened in spaces occupied by members of their own sex, then we need to make those risky spaces safer for them, surely? Instead we fail to address the root cause of their concerns - fear of verbal abuse and attack, real or imagined. I'm sure that a lot of men would have no problem with a transwomen standing beside them at the urinals for one very good reason - transwomen are men. But no, instead of addressing the issue, we find it expedient to promote a fiction that transwomen are women.

(2) You might have no qualms about sharing a space with the sterotypical timid and unobstrusive post-operative transexual. You might feel different about challenging the chap hovering around the hand-dryer, with a crumpled suit, five o'clock shadow, no wig and a slash of lipstick. And he's left the seat up! (True story).

I wouldn't personally feel threatened by a trans woman using the ladies'. But I'd feel bad for them if they had to go into the men's in women's clothes - that sounds risky, given what we know about toxic masculinity.

Thing is, not all Trans women DO wear women's clothes. that is the point.

So, if faced with a trans woman in a ladies toilet - how do you know whether they are
a - post op
b - pre op
c - there because they are using women's clothes to gain access in order to find someone to attack

???

I sure as hell don't know, if you can shed a light on how women tell than that would be great.

Also, with males in female toilets, you are automatically excluding women who for religious reasons cannot now use those toilets. I mean, wowsers, what a result eh? For the racists I mean.

If they had not been lobbying for weakening of sex based protections then they would not be finding they are less and less welcome in women’s spaces TBH.

(And also weakens protections for transpeople too since sex is fundamental to trans status, though this is not strictly an issue for feminists)

what are they supposed to do when they need a wee

These are not glib or stupid questions, they are important to discuss!

I think the answer is ‘what women did’ which is lobby for spaces for themselves. Lobby for an end to gendered expectations which are the cause of the violence. Many GC women would be right with them if they did.

The problem is that what is being lobbied for is reinforcing of gender stereotypes and a weakening of sex based protections which weakens protections from oppression for women.

Snappity also if gender identity, the feeling of gender is innate and internal, how can it be learned? If it's innate, it's just there. If it's learned then it's part of external reality, and it is superimposed on the sexed subject. Also if infants have to learn 'gender identity' why are there phallic prostheses on the market aimed at children as young as 3 or 4, which are supposedly intended to allow them to express their 'innate' (therefore not learned) gender identity?

Sorry if it's already been mentioned (I've not read the whole thread) but the curse t feature in the Economist is a good mix of pieces by different authors. www.economist.com/open-future/2018/06/29/transgender-identities-a-series-of-invited-essays

Who told you trans people are unsafe in mens spaces? Gay men have sex in mens spaces. It doesn't get much safer than that.

Women are more vulnerable. Why do we have to give up our spaces?

If a transwoman had an entirely masculine presentation then you wouldn’t be able to identify their gender identity as feminine would you? A transwoman can still be identified as biologically male 99% of the time as they need surgical intervention and hormones to read as biologically female... You don’t read someone as female or male based on how they feel inside...

You know Snappity your outright refusal to engage to try to find ANY common ground or mutually understood terms, no matter how hard your ideological opponents try reflects really badly on you.

You ask what relevance SEX has wrt fitting rooms?
The answer is that fitting rooms have always been segregated by sex.
Because the sexes have different bodies and fitting rooms involve undressing those bodies.
And because the sexes are so physically different that they demand privacy from one another.

It is so obvious to readers that you refuse to engage with facts about sex because you know that to answer those questions dismantles your whole position. And that is why we continue to ask these questions.

Sex exists.
Females exist.
Males are physically, reproductively, biologically different to females.

Females have the right to be recognised as the sex they are.
Females have the right to boundaries around themselves.
Those boundaries will exclude males.

Gender has no relevance to any of those statements.
It exists only to make the case that female existence and recognition of the female sex should be denied so that female boundaries can be breached.

No wonder you don't want to engage on the matter of sex.

We are keeping our boundaries, pal.

Snappity
Read the posts on Mumsnet about people wanting to make sure that crimes committed by men aren't recorded as committed by women. That happens because people believe that statistics will influence behaviour. In other words, it isn't about an inate of objective (ie sex) sense of the difference between men and women but a subjective (ie gender) based sense of the likely difference
Oh come on - statistics that aren't accurate are not only useless but dangerous. Sex is a relevant factor in violent crime and this is an objective measure. I do not have a clue what point you are trying to make.

Thanks Offred, I suppose my point is also: if trans women are unsafe in men's spaces, and yet unwelcome in women's spaces, what are they supposed to do when they need a wee?! It may theoretically be possible to have third sex spaces at some point but that's not the way the world is configured now.

Sorry if I sound glib. I don't mean to be.
I care deeply about women's rights and am passionate about wanting to prevent violence against women. And I also want to be kind and generous to people who are - frankly - more vulnerable than I am.

PS I do understand this isn't all about toilets! Just picking somewhere to start.

Snappity if a sense of gender is innate, non-verifiable and not open to question by those who observe it, it then relates to a theory of mind that suggests that no-one, including you, can independently prove/disprove its existence or what it may consist of. The only reality becomes the linguistic utterances of the individual making the gender identity claim. In which case it is not possible for you to make the clam you make about babies, as how can you know what their innate sense of anything is?

Once you have identified someone’s sex, at that point you may consider how they may act.

And medical research statistics...

No, it’s a response based on identification of biological sex...

gender does not mean sex, as sex is simple biological genes. many women suffer mental distress that is associated with the male sex. this distress can cause women to be continually wary of men...cross the road, pull that jumper arou dyou...and can become extreame in physically exposed situation. This innate response is to sex not gender that is reinforced by their experiences

That's a response based on gender - a learned view of how males are likely to react. If it was based on sex an infant would have the same response as an adult, but they don't. It is learned and that makes it gender.

Snappity yes statistics can influence behaviour . Specifically, if crime is misrecorded then the behaviour that is influenced is that of law makers who can not justify sex separation if there is no observed differences between the sexes

Read the posts on Mumsnet about people wanting to make sure that crimes committed by men aren't recorded as committed by women. That happens because people believe that statistics will influence behaviour. In other words, it isn't about an inate of objective (ie sex) sense of the difference between men and women but a subjective (ie gender) based sense of the likely difference.

I can't speak for other posters but it matters to me because, again, it impacts on material reality. Statistics on crime impact on funding, policy, support for vulnerable groups. We know that violence against women is rising because of data analysis, not intuitive feelings, the figures from the Crown Prosecution Service, for example demonstrate that violence against women tends to fall into particular dominant categories, it is also rising, crime committed by women does not tend to overlap with those committed against them. If those who are sexed male can self-report as someone who would otherwise be identified as sexed female, it skews those statistics. It gives an entirely different picture of reality and those pictures then influence funding and policy here and ultimately elsewhere.