Looking for a neutral summary on trans issues

So, in practical terms, do you 1) agree women's rights (to safe spaces, for example) potentially endangered by trans rights (to self-identify) and 2) do you see any way out of this conundrum?

No, I don't think Self-ID is a danger to women's rights. In most of the situations discussed on Mumsnet the Gender Recognition Act is irrelevant - presently it matters mostly in terms of bureaucratic situations. How often do you use your birth certificate?

I wonder if snappity has considered the possibility that the reason GC stuff doesn’t make sense to them re it being about GC people believing gender doesn’t exist is actually because GC is not believing gender doesn’t exist...

🙄

I wonder if maybe it would be a bit easier to understand if they dropped that preconception...

Catkind

I don't think it possible to do without bias. It always creeps in. The mental gymnastics it requires are simply cognitive dissonance.

I've spent over 10 years dealing with it and listening to my mother attempt it.

The denial it involves is impossible to avoid. It's that denial part which is the biggest issue out of all of it in my experience. Not the identity, but the power and control over creating this alternative and then trying to change the world around to fit to that, rather than adapting to the world like everyone else.

It can not be separated out.

The ultimate inescapable truth is everyone's experience is based on their sex, even if they are trans. They will only have the trans experience that relates to their sex, not the opposite. You are either one sex or the other. Unless you are intersex which is another entirely different thing again. (Though there has been many attempts at appropriation).

The experience of a female trans person is not the same as a male trans person. And you can't have a trans trans person. (A transwoman who becomes a transman) Nor can a woman be a transwoman.

I have tried many times to cross this bridge. I can't do it and maintain my own sense of self and worth. I wish it were possible. Truly I do.

I do think anyone who tries to tell you different is simply dishonest or in denial.

That's not to say gender isn't important to many, many people. It's just that it does not and can not adequately replace the reality of sex. What defines you as who you are is unique to your personality, but your physical being is a legacy of your genetics from your parents.

The experience of being transgender is unique to the sex you were born. Ironically, you can not define being trans without reference to your sex. It's the elephant in the room.

You either accept this reality or express ideology to deny it one way or another to a varying degree.

Yeah, I tend to think it’s not particularly academic or theoretical too... It ends up being discussed in an academic and theoretical way because gender identity seems to be undefinable and unverifiable which is one of the reasons it’s not a good thing to replace definable and verifiable sex categories...

because it's so theoretical/academic

It's not though. It's whether one thinks women should be put at greater risk. It's whether or not your daughter should risk pregnancy on a Guide trip. It's whether some person with a five o'clock shadow should be able to stick a speculum up your vag when you said you wanted a woman to do it. And on and on and on...

Do not listen to anyone who confuses you with word salad. There is nothing academic about it.

So Snappity, since you're arguing from the opposite position, do you think there are ways to protect women's rights from being eroded while giving trans people the recognition and rights they want?

Again, a genuine question!! I've been following this argument with confusion and dismay (not just this thread, but this argument in the culture more widely).

I've been listening and thinking about what everyone is saying here about sex and gender and while I (sort of) follow, it feels like you could all argue this stuff endlessly because it's so theoretical/academic.

So, in practical terms, do you 1) agree women's rights (to safe spaces, for example) potentially endangered by trans rights (to self-identify) and 2) do you see any way out of this conundrum?

How would we even measure/see sexism anymore? It basically totally obscures the majority of sexism and it does nothing to address rights for trans people because it also obscures the sex part of their material reality so effectively doing away with transphobia too (people are ‘just’ male and female based on stated gender ID).

Yes, to opening up to abuse re segregated spaces but also protection from discrimination and initiatives to redress imbalances and encourage sex equality too.

Indirect discrimination, which makes up a large proportion of sex discrimination claims is based on shared characteristics.

AWS are designed to redress a sex imbalance in parliament.

Awards for women in industry are designed to redress sex imbalance in business.

Stats currently help up see how these things are working.

Given the numbers of transgender people (virtually everyone re stonewall’s definition) then it really is not scaremongering to say the majority of places reserved for women’s advancement could actually be people with male biology at some point if this stuff comes in and they would be seen as female re the law.

Oops didn't mean that to be bold. Not sure what I did there....

Thanks Dottie * Okay I think I understand better now what the issue is. It's not that trans women per se are a threat to women's rights, rather a concern that dismantling the categories that some of those rights are predicated on will result in abuses (& generally in making those rights harder to uphold). Have I got that correct?*

No snappity it is based on sex. it's is based on evidence that one sex commits most of the violence. We know that sex not gender affects propensity to violence.

.Funnily enough, I believe babies can tell male from female. Voice pitch, smell and touch ( the levels of fat make women softer ) .

For me to accept your gender identity, I need a means to recognise it. How can I tell your gender identity?

Apple I've known a lot of non-threatening transwomen too, I've had a relationship with one. I have stated on other threads I've been to 'trans' clubs, all very safe spaces. I used the loos no problem. I've also been to ones where the trans clientele overlapped with clientele who are more common at fetish clubs and some of the people who presented as 'women' in those settings were rather different. So I don't have a problem sharing a lot of spaces with transmen or transwomen but that's not the issue. The category is now potentially so wide that it covers a vast range of groups. Some of whom can be more benign than others, although to be fair a lot of the 'fetish' groups are quite sweet once you get past the exterior. However others were pretty scary to me and to transwomen.
If you get a self-id situation it really won't be much trouble for a whole range of people to gain access to what are currently single-sex spaces. Also it's not just about direct violence, if you're a voyeur/'peeping Tom' then access to certain spaces will suddenly be easier not harder.
And if men only commit violence when it's easy, how do you account for those who spend months/years grooming victims of various sorts online?
Also what you/I/somebody finds 'sweet' and non-threatening in a social situation may be intimidating to a woman who encounters that person as unknown and in her intimate space. It will also make it impossible for women from certain religious backgrounds to use that space at all. We already have instances of ethnic minority women with breast cancer who've waited until their breasts are literally rotting, because they are too afraid of exposing their bodies to strange male health-care professionals. The only situation I know where this kind of problem was addressed was when I was involved in 'safe ride' and 'taxi services' that were women only, but took men straight/gay/trans if a reliable woman vouched for them, but that's pretty impossible to replicate across a whole range of services with high volume turnovers.

Pam, was the person in the crumpled suit with the stubble definitely trans?

And here lies the problem, how can anyone know? If they say they are trans then they are trans.

Trans is a very broad definition now that goes way beyond the post op transsexuals

Just catching up with this thread and the claim that a a couple of Hollywood films prove the existence of gender identity is the best thing I have read all day.

How can anyone prove the existence of gender identity? How can it be verifiable? It’s just nonsense.

Okay thanks Offred. I understand that.

Pam, was the person in the crumpled suit with the stubble definitely trans? sounds more like some rude random bloke!

it also makes me wonder why there's a suspicion that trans women are assuming a feminine gender identity for personal gain or to be predatory.

That is what is being said about what is being said

What is actually being said is that people are mainly worrying about men who will exploit weak laws. If the laws are made based on how someone says they feel inside, which is totally unverifiable, then how do we keep any man out of female spaces?

We all have problems with those types.

Your whole argument is based on flipping stereotypes isn't it?!!!!

Wow just wow at that comment.

'Those types'

Talk about missing the point.

Okay, thanks to people that answered my questions. And thanks for not flaming me for not being sure of my terminology or knowing much about this subject matter. All food for thought.

It's good to hear about different people's experiences.

I've only met a couple of trans women and they were both very sweet and non threatening. I know that's not exactly scientific or a sound basis for sweeping legal changes... but I suppose it also makes me wonder why there's a suspicion that trans women are assuming a feminine gender identity for personal gain or to be predatory.

FWIW, in my experience men are perfectly capable of being entitled and predatory without going to so much trouble!

I questioned the relevance of the aspects of sex you choose to highlight have something like a changing room.

The entirety of sex is the relevance.

Characteristics are how we determine sex.
Sex is how you determine which groups share tangible commonality.
Commonality is the basis of segregating shared areas.

Females have no tangible commonality with transwomen because they are opposite sex groups.

What relevance do you think 'gender' has, and can it have any relevance to anything, when it can't even be explained or defined without reference to the sex based terms you won't look at upthread?

How you can hold a conversation about gender without explaining what you mean by it?

I felt threatened by my siblings ex due to their behaviour.

Whether YOU feel fine with it is irrelevant.

It would make me feel less safe and think twice about being in certain situations. I'm already very anxious about HCPs and medical settings.

That's a problem if a significant number of women feel like that. How can you expect / demand acceptance under those conditions?

And transsexuals may be a minority but the transgender umbrella pretty much includes all people...

GC women don’t ‘have problems with those types’... GC women have problems with laws that allow any type of male to be considered legally female based on their gender identity.