Looking for a neutral summary on trans issues

But unbelievably that is supposed to be a transphobic, anti-trans position... a position of concern for how we protect trans people from trans based harms and women from sex based harms...

It’s insane!

Someone put it really well on another thread: a corporation is a person but if I break the windows of Tesco I get prosecuted for criminal damage not ABH.

Exactly!

It is not difficult. Sex discrimination laws and gender identity discrimination laws... the only possible reason to actually object to that is if you want to pretend that your sex doesn’t exist. It does though and you can’t even be trans without it existing, no-one can claim discrimination or harassment based on gender identity/expression without sex existing...

"trans women are women. For instance, their passports say female and the Government cannot misrepresent facts in an official document. So it is fact not belief."

There is a difference between what actually, biologically, is (= fact) and what we accept as true for legal purposes.

For example, corporations are considered legal persons by law. Is a corporation really a person? No.

Another example: Laws say a 15.5-year-old teenager is a child and a 16-year-old teenager is an adult. Is a hairy 6-foot lad a child the day before his 16th birthday? No. Does he become an adult the day after? No.

and this is why we should (I think) have two sets of classifications. One to describe gender and one to describe sex. We can then have a discussion about a)the cases in which sex OR gender based exemptions are reasonable/necessary and b) whether it should be sex OR gender

I have my own (quite strong) views on this but we cannot talk about it if we keep on going round in semantic circles

No, neither is any woman... that’s the problem...

If transwomen are women, i am not a woman.

And no snappity it shows that the govt has legislated to allow male people to be treated as female for the purposes of passports if they satisfy the conditions required to do so...

I know people say that the protected characteristic of gender reassignment protects them, but it does not. If they are paid less than their male colleagues, for instance, they need to be able to bring a sex discrimination claim as women. Gender reassignment does not help.

Again, ‘gender reassignment protects them’ is not something taken from a GC woman’s view.

I’m very aware that gender reassignment does not protect transpeople adequately though they would have a claim under gender reassignment based on a comparison with their own sex currently. If they are unhappy to be paid as women are, less than men, then why do they want to identify into the opposite sex category thereby destroying the ability to bring shared characteristics claims (indirect discrimination)?

What is stopping the government making and trans people asking for legislation to protect their gender identity and their sex?

Saying transwomen are women is a statement of faith.

I don't know why you are bothering to debate with someone who thinks that women without a uterus and men who have surgery are both the same, both with their 'blind canals'.

The funny thing is - the TRAs report to get things deleted and people banned; whereas the women want their abuse and rhetoric to stand so that everyone can see them for what they are.

Bother. I do not want to get into a debate here on TWAW, irrespective of what people's passports may say. That is a debate that has been rehashed over and over, and gets people very heated.

But that shows it is fact not belief. It is crucial to this thread.

Trans activists additionally believe that how you feel is more critical than biology and that people should be treated on how they feel not their biology. Thus they believe that trans people should have access to spaces that hitherto have been single sex. They also believe that jobs that have hitherto been single sex (by which I mean whereby someone can request someone of a specific sex) should be made available to someone who feels they are of that gender, even if their body is naturally of the opposite gender. Furthermore they believe they should always be referred to as the gender they have transitioned to.

I also dislike that paragraph because it sets out separate beliefs. It should be.

"trans women are women and do not believe that they should be treated differently to other women"

x-post. Bother. I do not want to get into a debate here on TWAW, irrespective of what people's passports may say. That is a debate that has been rehashed over and over, and gets people very heated.

It is not what this thread was set up for.

I do think it is telling that Snappity only complained about 1 word (validate) in my original post. So I can't have been too far out, even though this thread is now over 200 posts.

I didn't entirely agree with Snappity's re-writing of my rewriting (it used a phrase like 'transwomen are women' whereas I think maybe 'transwomen say they are women' (or believe they are) would be a more neutral way of expressing the view) but I think we are probably close enough (though poles apart).

Ah this is where we come up against being unable to conceive of other people's beliefs as different to yours. Yes, that's going to make describing your beliefs without asserting them difficult. I consider that TWAM is a fact, but I'm still able to understand that other people don't agree with me and frame it as a statement of what I believe rather than fact.

But trans women are women. For instance, their passports say female and the Government cannot misrepresent facts in an official document. So it is fact not belief.

I thought under the equality act you could bring a case for being perceived as belonging to a protected group as well as actually belonging to it? Will have to check that one...

Yes that's right.

I thought under the equality act you could bring a case for being perceived as belonging to a protected group as well as actually belonging to it? Will have to check that one...

For direct discrimination you can, so anyone excluded because they are wrongly perceived to be a trans woman will have exactly the same rights as a trans woman.

If I and many others can reliably tell sex but not gender, how can you claim that self id is no threat To Women? because if we can't tell then it's down to someone's word and , as many women know, that's not to be trusted.

If people are so good at telling sex, why do we have this thread?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3303233-Misgendering-How-do-biological-women-handle-it

Transwomen want access to female spaces because they perceive themselves as women and feel their need for such spaces is undifferentiated to any other woman's need.

No because you are changing a fact to a view