Looking for a neutral summary on trans issues

Recognising sexed bodies and their different functions and allocating spaces and services according to the needs of those bodies is practical.

Suggesting that the different sexes need different functions and services is mostly about gender. There are exceptions like maternity provision - that is sex - but suggesting that changing rooms should be sexed is an argument based on gender, not sex, because the action of changing is identical for both sexes.

Snappity now I see, so GC feminists don't strip out gender but we argue that is externally imposed, society puts people in girl and boy boxes. Nobody's mind/soul/essence is wholely male or female

I don't have an effing clue what a gender critical viewpoint really looks like because most of the views on here rely on gender.

Even the supposed gender critical definition of women isn't because it is built on what women are believed to feel comfortable together - gender.

Snappity now I see, so GC feminists don't strip out gender but we argue that is externally imposed, society puts people in girl and boy boxes. Nobody's mind/soul/essence is wholely male or female

Because trans people aren't hung up on definitions like that. Their world view is much more pragmatic.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of the word pragmatic. Below is the dictionary definition of the word.

pragmatic
praɡˈmatɪk/Submit
adjective
dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations.

Recognising sexed bodies and their different functions and allocating spaces and services according to the needs of those bodies is practical.

Arguing that a penis is female etc... to my mind absolutely falls into the theoretical category.

It is one of the things that makes it miserable for everyone IMO. If just listening to points of view becomes hateful and makes you a hateful person then society becomes extremely divided and it will divide along existing power lines.

TBF to the transactivist side this is not something unique to them IMO, it’s become the way of doing things in the mainstream... it has polarised everything.

Read the thread about third spaces.

There is a long section on "consent" to access spaces and how there is an expectation of what "ladies" on a door means. That's gender viewpoints, not sex.

I tried to be as neutral as I could be dancing . Would you like to quote some bits and rephrase them more neutrally?

Yes Offred, and even TeenTimesTwo's valiant attempt to pithily explain the two positions falls down slightly because it uses biased language to explain, particularly, the pro-trans position.

Either you present biased anti-trans info, without any trans peoples perspectives or opinions taken into account........... or you present something informative and backed up by majority opinion of experts and information and stats NOT plucked from wordpress blogs..... but you'll find it difficult to find reliable information or reputable organisations against trans rights.

Yes, I was coming on to say it is going to be very hard to find something that people who are already on the other side will see as neutral because part of taking that side is ‘there is only one right way to think’ and even considering the ‘other side’ or the points of disagreement = transphobia...

sorry snappity can you rephrase I literally cannot understand the link between your comments about Saudi arabia and the paragraph of mine you quoted

Because I believe that gender critical feminists think that they strip out gender but I don't think that they actually do so.

For instance, I think "women feel vulnerable" is a statement about gender, not sex because it is so heavily weighted by how society treats women. So, if a gender critical view is truly being expressed, then it should never use feelings or statistics - statistics again are all about gender and how society interprets.

But if you go to Saudi Arabia a single sex space has a much more expensive meaning than in the UK. In contrast, in France and Belgium women pass men standing at urinals in order to reach the door with a "woman" sign. One of the huge problems in the discussions here is that gender critical feminists don't, in fact, strip out gender.

This is great stuff. I happen to disagree with Snappity's broad position but it is really good to see a reasoned dissenting viewpoint on here.

sorry snappity can you rephrase I literally cannot understand the link between your comments about Saudi arabia and the paragraph of mine you quoted

There are umpteen threads here inviting believers of the trans position (I don't know how to refer to this group without falling foul of guidelines) to define terms so that mutual understanding can be reached, and they always decline or obfuscate.

Because trans people aren't hung up on definitions like that. Their world view is much more pragmatic.

Sorry to derail there's a thread questioning the right of lesbians to protest at Pride, have put in my penny's worth, anyone else want to add something?

Gender Critical people believe that gender is constructed - there is no such thing as an internal female or men identity. Gender is something that is imposed externally on us by societal norms. People may have values/preferences that are inconguerent with the gender that is imposed on them but this does not mean that they are a different gender. On the other hand they believe that biological sex is important. It is important NOT because it determines attitudes, behaviour, how people want to present themselves but because it determines how society treats us, because the physical differences between men and women determine our place in society. The importance of biology is not a normative statement in this view but a positive one

But if you go to Saudi Arabia a single sex space has a much more expensive meaning than in the UK. In contrast, in France and Belgium women pass men standing at urinals in order to reach the door with a "woman" sign. One of the huge problems in the discussions here is that gender critical feminists don't, in fact, strip out gender.

Good post Teen

I was hoping someone had done the research and synthesis for me! My go to for the trans position is currently Stonewall, is that reasonable would you say garam?

No. "Trans" is a great big floppy umbrella term for groups which are very different. You need to talk at a grassroots level.

And unfortunately I think you will struggle to find a GC viewpoint that doesn't contain words that "trans allies" would find acceptable.

We're being quite heavily moderated here under threat of the ban hammer.

Stating that a female has a uterus is considered exclusionary and if you maintain that point of view then you are transphobic.

I'd also add that the transwoman I know doesn't subscribe to the current ideology and guess many others don't either. Unfortunately it seems to be a rather extreme minority who are leading the discussion.

TWAW believe that gender identity is real but biological sex is either constructed or an irrelevant difference like eye colour or nose shape. In their world the word woman means someone that feels like a woman "inside". Thus to call a transwoman not a real woman is offensive because it ignores and denies her sense of who she is. To target pregnancy/abortion advice and support on "women" is offensive and exclusive because it ignores the fact that many "men" have uteri

Gender Critical people believe that gender is constructed - there is no such thing as an internal female or men identity. Gender is something that is imposed externally on us by societal norms. People may have values/preferences that are inconguerent with the gender that is imposed on them but this does not mean that they are a different gender. On the other hand they believe that biological sex is important. It is important NOT because it determines attitudes, behaviour, how people want to present themselves but because it determines how society treats us, because the physical differences between men and women determine our place in society. The importance of biology is not a normative statement in this view but a positive one

I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will correct me if I haven't been balanced.

I think I should also say that:

Traditionally women in general have been accepting of the small number of transwomen who have used women's toilets and changing rooms. The push back now appears to be due to the demands of the activists that this should be a right for anyone who feels they are trans, rather than a courtesy for those undergoing medical transition.

There are also issues regarding teenagers, ASD and medicalisation.

If you want to engage, dancingbear, then engage with the position I take. We can all throw quips about.

There's no point if you hold the view that there is only one possible position. You may as well shut the forum down. As a vehicle for debate it's already a worthless echo chamber. And I happen to agree with much of what's posted here.

The OP's come on and said 'I'm trying to get a better understanding of both sides of the argument so that I can discuss it better with others and hopefully persuade them'. You've basically responded 'there is no other side of the argument, only ours'. Do you see the problem?

gender-critical sites, push back against trans rights

No, we are holding the line on women's rights. The transactivists are the one's doing the pushing.