Looking for a neutral summary on trans issues

I think the OP posted a very valid question, and then helpfully clarified it - and that teen had a pretty good bash at simplifying the two "approaches", while recognising that there is more variation than that

Snappity it would probably help the OP more if you answered her question i.e. did an equivalent descriptor to teens of the two "approaches" rather than criticising teens one.... In fact it would probably help all of us.... including me!.

BarrackerBarmer, that's all irrelevant in the context of social spaces. How does having given birth have any relevance whatsoever to using a fitting room in a store, for example?

I think the transsexual position could be expressed like this.

Everyone has a gender identity and present sexual appearance matters more than any "natal" state. There is a dissonance for individuals if their gender identity does not match their sexual appearance and that dissonance applies in groups if there is a difference between an individual's gender identity and the sexual appearance of group members.

Snappity

Allow me to demonstrate relevance then.

My questions relate to sex, which exists, and is binary.
All of us are of the male sex, or the female sex
(or have a recognised and tangible disorder of sexual development)

Any discussion invoking the word 'gender', also, confusingly, tends to use biological terms belonging to sexual classifications.

So it's a good idea to untangle the confusion in order to understand one another.

That starts with reaching consensus about sex.
And then moving on to gender.

Because sex is a standalone concept. It can be explained, fully, without ever referencing 'gender'. It exists in other species of plant and animal and can be objectively described without ever referencing feelings or identities.

But 'Gender' only exists by referencing sex. It's dependent upon an understanding of sex based terms.

So we have to explain sex first.

For example: I have XX chromosomes and a reproductive system which includes ovaries, fallopian tubes and uterus. I produce the gamete we call ova. I have gestated young. These tangible facts classify me as 'female' in the English language.
It matters not what the word actually is, as long as society understands it to be the label for the half of our species that possess similar characteristics.

As I am an adult female, the label used is woman.
My daughter is a juvenile female, and the word for her is girl.

How can we discuss the subject 'gender' that references sex without first agreeing our mutual understanding of the terms we are using?!

I've just spotted my error. Where would India Willoughby fit in? IW believes it is possible to change sex... perhaps it is no longer a requirement to sign off that you understand you aren't actually changing sex before srs.

I'd set trans out around the history that it used to be transsexuals with gender dysphoria who don't actually believe they've changed sex, but try to 'live as' or be treated as though they are the opposite sex to relieve their mental condition.

Then I would mention that since then, the trans umbrella has widened to include other groups, such as 1) people who don't have dysphoria but like to wear the clothes of the opposite sex and/or go into the private spaces of the opposite sex and/or be treated as the opposite sex for various other reasons including transvestite/crossdressers/drag queens. 2) people who believe they have an inner self, a bit like a soul, called their 'identity' which is the opposite sex and their body is wrong including 'shemales'/'dickgirls'. 3) people who believe in an inner self which is a combination of sexuality and personality that is completely distinct from their body and it is rude to perceive them according to their sex including non-binary/genderqueer.

I would say that these three types refer to transsexuals as truscum, because transsexuals believe you must have dysphoria to be trans.

My understanding, again trying to be neutral.

Trans people believe there is a feeling of 'being a woman' or 'being a man' that is separate from (and more important than) biology. [Except for those who feel their body is 'wrong' and therefore want surgery and hormones to change their body? But this appears to be a minority of modern trans people? ]

Gender critical people believe that feelings of being opposite to the sex of your body are mainly due to the strong gender stereotyping we have these days (see all the let toys be toys, don't keep shoving pink at girls, anyone can do any job etc campaigns pushing back on stereotyping) and that rather than saying people are transgender there should be much more acceptance of people not fitting the current gender based stereotypes.

There is also some concern from some in the LG community, and others, that teens / young adults who are having feelings of same sex attraction are being unduly encouraged to think they are trans rather than lesbian/gay and that this is coming from a trans activism agenda or even homophobia.
Whereas from the other point of view, it is good that people now have the confidence to declare they are trans if that is how they feel.

All gender, the first two obviously so, and the third because physical strength has no impact on the activity of changing but only about how women feel in the space which is a statement about gender.

You seem to be pushing the notion that taking one's clothes off in a mixed sexed environment is completely neutral and couldn't possibly lead to consequences beyond the act of getting changed.

This is utterly disingenuous. In any humanitarian situation one of the first things the UN does is establish separate facilities by sex for toileting, washing and changing.

Why do they bother doing this? For fun? We all know why they do it and it's because women and girls are vulnerable to sexual assault otherwise. There is plenty of evidence of this.

Anyway, gender critical does not mean believing gender doesn’t exist. Getting rid of gender based harms involves criticising gender as a system doesn’t it?

But excluding trans women is a gender-based harm so why do gender critical feminists not reject that harm too?

Snappity
Gender as a social construct defines, limits and oppresses women. It is not a natural, innate, fixed quality. And yes on occasion, as in single sex spaces it can protect women. However it should not be the priority to dismantle those few and far between protections leaving the rest of the unequal power balance intact. That only serves to diminish women's rights. They are actually single SEX spaces not single GENDER spaces,which is what the debate is about.
A social construct is real not theoretical

Is this something that my gender supporting peers would engage with?

No, because you have not shown relevance. The truth is that someone is comfortable in a space feels comfortable if his/her gender identity matches the sex of all those in the space - and the greater the dissonance between the two, the less comfortable people are - but it is impossible to have that discussion because gender critical feminists refuse to accept that gender identity exists.

I don't have an effing clue what a gender critical viewpoint really looks like because most of the views on here rely on gender.

To be honest I don't even know what a gender critical feminist really is. I came to feminism before the UK starting using the word "gender" instead of the word "sex"

Feminists were critical of the way the female sex were treated because of their sex. We used to be to use the word "woman" because it meant adult human female. That's all it meant.

I've never had angst over using the toilet regardless of how it was labelled "woman" "ladies" (which I am not) or "little princess room" (ok I rolled my eyes at that and explained to my 3yr old that she shouldn't use the "little pirates" room despite being dressed as one.)

However having lived in France and having been spied on in their unisex toilets I do appreciate having a single sex environment to do my business. Incidentally the British men were most perturbed at females walking past them whilst they used the urinals.

I don't understand where the hell gender comes into. I don't know what a "woman" gender is. Are you using the word gender to mean sex?

Or do you mean because feminists use class analysis eg females need protection due to male violence they are talking about gender?

Hi OP,

It's reasonable to ask what Catholics believe because if you sign up to be a Catholic you have to accept the authority of the church.

But trans people's beliefs are surely going to be as varied as the beliefs of the rest of us?

Errr no, the third one is about knowing that your sex makes you more vulnerable to the other sex... that’s not a feeling, that’s knowledge... of reality... the reality of biological sex...

Anyway, gender critical does not mean believing gender doesn’t exist. Getting rid of gender based harms involves criticising gender as a system doesn’t it?

Where differences of opinion are irreconcilable, you need to go back to where there exists common ground.
Are humans mammals
Are mammals sexually dimorphic
What are the objective characteristics of male and female in our species
What is a female reproductive system
How do humans reproduce

And then you agree mutually understood terms for these concepts.
What do we name female children
What do we name female adults
What do we name male children
What do we name male adults

Is this something that my gender supporting peers would engage with?

and the question of separating changing rooms is to do with
1) norms of modesty etc which are imposed on women more
2) societal norms that mean that men feel entitled to female bodies
3) difference in physical strength between men and women

All gender, the first two obviously so, and the third because physical strength has no impact on the activity of changing but only about how women feel in the space which is a statement about gender.

yes offred

and the question of separating changing rooms is to do with

1. norms of modesty etc which are imposed on women more
2. societal norms that mean that men feel entitled to female bodies
3. difference in physical strength between men and women

I think TeenTimesTwo's summary was beautifully clear, and I'm actually going to use it as a basis for discussions with my DDs.

The reason women feel vulnerable is about both sex and gender - physical vulnerability and gendered socialisation which increases likelihood of coming to harm.

For instance, I think "women feel vulnerable" is a statement about gender, not sex because it is so heavily weighted by how society treats women.

I feel vulnerable when out and about because of the men that might attack and penetrate me without my permission; not because I feel like I should be home in the kitchen doing some ironing. And knowing that if it did happen, and it went to court, and they were found guilty, the judge would probably deem the future of the person of the opposite sex more important than the potential threat to other members of the same sex as me going forward.

Of course it is about one sex being less important in society than another, not about the gender roles that people take on.

Changing rooms etc is about the physical vulnerability of women - sex not gender

This is rather like looking for a neutral view on whether the earth is flat or round.

For instance, where do you think the middle ground might be in between women saying we have a right to choose our sexual partners vs men saying we don't ?

Well yes, because ‘gender critical’ does not mean ‘people who think gender doesn’t exist’ I know that the activists say that’s what it means but it’s not.

It means critical of gender. It acknowledges gender exists but it is critical of it’s value as a system around which to organisation society.

Also gender critical does not necessarily mean you are a radical feminist although radical feminists are deeply critical of gender.