Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Looking for a neutral summary on trans issues

367 replies

catkind · 11/07/2018 13:04

I won't pretend I don't hold strong (GC) views myself, but I would find it really useful to have a neutral summary of the positions both sides (and subcamps) are taking. I want to be able to explain to friends who have no idea about trans politics what this is about and what the disagreements are, in terms that friends who are on the transactivist side of the debate won't disagree with. Anyone got any good links for me?

OP posts:
Offred · 11/07/2018 19:07

Point B. is particularly relevant given the transman who died as a direct result of negligent healthcare due in part to their biology being ignored.

Snappity · 11/07/2018 19:04

Would you prefer: Transwomen want access to female spaces because they believe that their feelings that they are women overrides biology when it comes to separated spaces.

Much better, thank you but the correct verso is "Trans women want access to female spaces because they are women and their need for such spaces is undifferentiated to any other woman's need"

Offred · 11/07/2018 19:02

Since transwomen continue to have male biology then you need to demonstrate;

A. Excluding them from the male sex category without distinguishing that they are transwomen doesn’t harm them.

B. Including them in the female sex category doesn’t harm females or transwomen.

C. Not including them in the female sex category causes them harm and that if it can be proven, there isn’t another way of protecting them from this harm.

Offred · 11/07/2018 18:54

But excluding trans women is a gender-based harm so why do gender critical feminists not reject that harm too?

No, that’s inverting the whole situation. The lobbying is for people with a feminine gender identity but male biology to be included in a totally different system based on female sex.

Gender is not the same as sex. Someone’s gender identity does not need to match their sex but sexism sanctions people who do not conform with gendered expectations of various kinds.

Arguments for inclusion in sex categories should be about evidence the sex categories need to be adjusted. An argument that some people’s gender identity means they find it difficult/impossible or are uncomfortable with fulfilling the gendered expectations of society or they want to fulfill the expectations placed on the opposite sex is an issue with gendered expectations, it has nothing to do with sex (apart from sexism attributing certain things to masculine/feminine) and it certainly does not provide any evidence that sex categories should be or need to be adjusted.

It is good evidence that gendered expectations need to be adjusted.

The harm is the gendered expectations not the sex categories.

Also, when adjusting sex categories you need to consider the whole of society because everyone in society has a sex and is therefore affected by changes to sex based rights, terms etc

TeenTimesTwo · 11/07/2018 18:47

So for example I wrote:
Transwomen want access to female spaces to validate their feelings that they are women.

You take exception to the term 'validate'.

Would you prefer: Transwomen want access to female spaces because they believe that their feelings that they are women overrides biology when it comes to separated spaces.

TeenTimesTwo · 11/07/2018 18:43

Snappity Would you care to quote some phrases / sentences I used and rewrite them in a more neutral way?

garam · 11/07/2018 18:33

Stonewall is ok, you'd be better speaking with actual trans orgs though, if you intend to find balance between that and the gender critical mob.

A lot of the gender critical stuff is circular arguments about etymology than rather anything based in the reality of experiences that includes trans experiences.

A lot of the framing is done by the gender-crit, and contains infinite strawmans about what trans people are actually fighting for.

Most trans orgs mission is to reduce bullying and abuse.
But their time is spent countering false narratives.

www.scottishtrans.org/trans-rights/

transequality.org/know-your-rights

www.buzzfeed.com/morganmpage/why-are-some-feminists-in-the-uk-freaking-out-about-trans?utm_term=.qur2Nm7ALK#.sjqwPzLQ7n

drwitch · 11/07/2018 18:33

So gender critical feminists are not critical of the concept of gender and how it can be used to other and oppress but we think a gender free world is a) possible and b) would be better

theOtherPamAyres · 11/07/2018 18:28

I found it helpful to focus on the recommended changes to existing legislation rather than the outcomes desired by Trans people, otherwise I couldn't find a coherent 'wish list'.

For instance, the Trans lobbyists want both a movement away from the medicalised model of trans AND shorter waiting lists for medical treatment, along with specially trained medical professionals to prescribe hormones during the wait.

No, our focus has to be on the Government's proposals rather than the mish-mash of contradictory demands from the trans lobby.

There are 35 recommendations coming from the Parliamentary Committee for Women and Equality. As an example, let's take the one that recommends lowering the age for Gender Recognition to 16 years.

The Trans Lobby would prefer the inclusion of under 16s, based on anguished case studies of unhappy children and teens. The opposing lobby promotes a 'wait and see' approach, based on evidence from detransitioners and those who had lucky escapes. Only one of those sides was listened to - but that's another story.

We can make a case around why we think the government is wrong to pursue the proposal. It's a waste of energy grappling with the Trans Lobby's proposals to medicate children because, as far as I can see, that's not even on the table.

I wish I could find a neutral list and I wish I had the intellectual capacity or time to probe the 34 other recommendations - because that's where the source of the dispute lies.

In this particular sphere, I oppose the government and the parliamentary sub committee. I defend the right of trans people to state their case to the government, but I also want the right to be heard and to make a different, evidence-based case.

Steps off soap box.

RedToothBrush · 11/07/2018 18:27

As I say, there is no neutral position. I never said that statement was neutral.

I do not think it possible to be neutral.

Its ripped my family apart because my mother believed she could be neutral but in doing so harmed me because she wasn't neutral and inadvertantly always put gender before sex.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 11/07/2018 18:25

X post orchid

Imnobody4 · 11/07/2018 18:25

Go on Snappity say it, you know you want to. Transwomen are women

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 11/07/2018 18:24

it starts from a premise of othering transsexuals instead of treating them as inherently normal too.

It is not healthy or normal to want to have dangerous/damaging medicine and surgery to your healthy body because you can't live with yourself as you naturally are.

That's a very dangerous position to take.

Although plastic surgeons are happy for people to think of it as normal. Ker-ching!

OrchidInTheSun · 11/07/2018 18:23

It's not 'inherently normal' to feel that your body is horribly wrong.

Snappity · 11/07/2018 18:16

Some might argue the middle line is that there is a very small number of people who suffer from a medical condition which causes psychological distress around their biology, and they might be better living a life more commonly associated with their opposite sex. In this case, they might benefit from having surgery to releave that. These people need protects to enable them to live relatively normal lives, but this still does not change their sex biologically (though they might have documentation that says otherwise, to help them tackle prejudice).

That statement is well-meaning and not intended to be unkind but it is not neutral either as it starts from a premise of othering transsexuals instead of treating them as inherently normal too.

Imnobody4 · 11/07/2018 18:13

Gender dysphoria is the dissonance between gender identity and sexual appearance

gender dysphoria is "a condition characterized by an individual's distress when he or she is forced to present themselves in accordance with their natal sex."

Snappity · 11/07/2018 18:12

Snappity it would probably help the OP more if you answered her question i.e. did an equivalent descriptor to teens of the two "approaches" rather than criticising teens one.... In fact it would probably help all of us.... including me!.

Teen did not, in my opinion, do a good job at all because she (I think) spoke about validation which is a pejorative term used by gender critical feminists.

And I can't express the gender critical viewpoint because for me it is self-contradictory and intellectually-deficient. I understand that there are genuine feelings on that side which deserve respect but I don't think that the gender critical perspective is an helpful framework to do that.

MIdgebabe · 11/07/2018 18:10

Short version as it appears to me

Extreme Trans position transwomen are women and must be treated as such in any circumstance

Mid trans position transwomen accept they are different to women but should be treated like women in most circumstances

Mid feminist position transwomen should be treated as women in most circumstances but these may be more restrictive set of circumstances than the mid trans,

Extreme feminist transwomen are men and must be treated as such in all circumstances

An additional complication is that some feminists will have different positions for neutered transwomen and those who have fully functional male genitals

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 11/07/2018 18:10

Gender dysphoria is the dissonance between gender identity and sexual appearance.

Not everyone believes in gender identity. Some people recognise that there is something wrong with their mind and they can't shake the feeling/delusion they are the opposite sex.

OrchidInTheSun · 11/07/2018 18:06

I don't think I have a gender identity. I wear 'men's clothes' when I'm not at work (in an office), I do DIY and can fix cars and am a qualified bricklayer.

I have also given birth to children.

What's my gender identity? I'm a woman not because I identify as one but because society has put me in a box labelled 'woman' and curtailed my opportunities accordingly.

"For instance, I think "women feel vulnerable" is a statement about gender, not sex because it is so heavily weighted by how society treats women. So, if a gender critical view is truly being expressed, then it should never use feelings or statistics - statistics again are all about gender and how society interprets."

Scott Wilson identifies as a man. It didn't stop them getting raped even though they told the rapist they identified as a man. The rapist didn't care.

If we were able to identify out of female oppression, rape, genital mutilation, crap salaries and wiping arses, believe me, I'd be there. It's our biology that constrains us, not our gender.

OvaHere · 11/07/2018 18:05

A fitting room isn't a social space it's an intimate space where people are unclothed. A social space would be something like a coffee shop where everyone is fully dressed and it makes no odds what sex you are.

As for everyone has a gender identity. I don't. I have a sexed body and a personality. Leading from that personality I have a number of likes/dislikes, hobbies and interests.

Some of those things some people would assign as 'male' or 'female' interests but most of us know that's bollocks and people can enjoy a wide range of things.

Snappity · 11/07/2018 18:04

I don't think all transsexuals believe in gender identity. Many recognised they have a mental condition of dysphoria which they opt to relieve with hormones/surgery/etc.

Gender dysphoria is the dissonance between gender identity and sexual appearance.

RedToothBrush · 11/07/2018 18:02

Water is wet.

There might be people who say its dry, because they believe it is and we've been getting it wrong for centuries.

You can not compromise and say, "er well its not wet and its not dry, its just a bit sort of damp/moist".

That's really the essence of the problem of the debate.

You'll never get a 'neutral' position for this reason.

Some might argue the middle line is that there is a very small number of people who suffer from a medical condition which causes psychological distress around their biology, and they might be better living a life more commonly associated with their opposite sex. In this case, they might benefit from having surgery to releave that. These people need protects to enable them to live relatively normal lives, but this still does not change their sex biologically (though they might have documentation that says otherwise, to help them tackle prejudice). But the number of people in this catergory is very narrow and defined and does not match with the much broader 'trans umbrella' which Stonewall support. But even this 'middle line' is deemed totally unacceptable to some trans activists.

You'll get articles around this position which do have more nuance and an understanding of the point of conflict (Debbie Hayton's in Quillette article) or the youtube blog of Rose of Dawn. Rose of Dawn is interesting as they point out that one of the issues is that the gender radical movement isn't one which is neutral and based on anything innate, but instead is a far left political movement trying to pass itself off as unpolitical and has a goal and agenda rather than the simple desire to exist as they are.

It is notable these two are both trans-sexuals who are caught in the cross fire of more extreme ends of trans activism and increasingly militant femininists who are trying to push back from 'Winston say five'. Both acknowledge they are still their birth sex although they may find this difficult at times. But as I say even their position is not deemed neutral as it acknowledges sex as a legitimate thing in addition to gender.

The bottom line is you either stick to the position sex is a biological thing that is unchanging and gender is ingrained in society or you have a belief that gender is innate and years of science is insufficient in explaining why people don't conform to the sex they were wrongly assigned. In this case there is not necessarily a need to alter your body to reflect your alternative identity.

And both ends of the spectrum of this argument are completely uncompromising on this, and for their own reasons feel that there is no middle ground that will ever be achievable.

The obliteration of the moderate arguement as having any legitimacy has seriously undermined it and removed the ability to have a more nuanced conversation with a lot of individuals, particularly trans activists who are believe that even trying to discuss this or introduce nuance is an affront to their identity and bigoted. You have to agree with them completely and without question or be bullied into silence on the matter.

That certainly is an ideological position and choice rather than deciding that acceptance and understanding comes from open discourse and questions where concerns and ignorance can be addressed and resolved calmly and mutually. The later takes time though, and there is a unwillingness to go through the process, and instead there is a belief that the best way to handle a lack of knowledge is to legislate and control people coercisively rather than by engaging with them.

I'm afraid the whole point is that there is a determination by the most militant transactivists who are largely in control of framing the debate to make it as 'You are either with us or against us'.

You are not supposed to talk about it. You are just supposed to accept what you are told without thinking about it.

And therein lies your problem if you intend to approach the subject; you need to know where the people you are talking with sit before you even start!

Imnobody4 · 11/07/2018 18:01

Snappity
Yes well if that's how you want to express it, but I've heard it put much better.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 11/07/2018 17:59

I think the transsexual position could be expressed like this.

Everyone has a gender identity

I don't think all transsexuals believe in gender identity. Many recognised they have a mental condition of dysphoria which they opt to relieve with hormones/surgery/etc.

Swipe left for the next trending thread