Looking for a neutral summary on trans issues

For your claim to be true breastfeeding etc would need to be functions of identity not functions of biology.

A woman in a support group for drugs / alcohol will interact different when a man is present.

Single sex 'social' spaces of this nature have been showed to aid those with addiction problems.

These are vulnerable women, who if they have been abused are finely tuned into the presence of men. Even if they are nice about someone trans, they may well still feel vulnerable on a psychological level because of their experience. It is deeply ingrain as part of their survival. Your logical brain can not over ride feelings like this (have a read about mind management and the concept of the emotional brain and the logical brain and overcoming anxiety).

Anyone asking women to do this, is asking the impossible.

The need for 'social' space along sex lines still exists because of this. There are 'social' spaces which are intimate on a psychological level.

This also does go into spaces where women undress for similar reasons. Especially medical settings.

Snappity you still have explained what you mean by a 'gendered identity' or what it means to feel 'female' and why/how that might overrides biology or the lived experience of those who are sexed female. And I don't just mean in the first world but on a global basis. Are all those women that the UN/Amnesty/Human Rights Watch and so on report on in terms of the material problems they face somehow not real to you? Will recategorizing them in terms of gender identities stop femicide in Juarez, rape, lack of sanitation, death in childbirth, forced marriage, fgm, lack of abortion rights, lack of contraception access. Linguistic utterances don't change material reality.

Of course they do. Read all the posts in FWR about how people associate their identity with menstruation, or giving birth, or breast feeding. Every time someone asserts that things like that matter, they are asserting a gender identity, they are asserting what their womanhood means to them. Because their gender identity is aligned to their sex, that it is a gender identity is easily overlooked. Watch body swap movies. The whole story line is that people only realise that they have a gender identity after the swap.

No they don’t because they are describing ‘womanhood’ in relation to material reality. Identity has nothing to do with this.

Knock it off with the social spaces crap. Places where women are undressed and therefore vulnerable are intimate spaces.

But it is your sense of gender - the difference between men and women as you see them - that makes you feel vulnerable. It is how you map sex onto likely behaviour which makes you feel vulnerable and that is gender. There's nothing wrong with feeling that way, but it is gender despite the gender critical ideology.

Watch body swap movies

I really don't think there is anything else to say, is there?

Watch body swap movies. The whole story line is that people only realise that they have a gender identity after the swap.

So followers of genderism base their beliefs on Hollywood sci-fi movies then? A bit like Scientology?

Healthcare needs depend on biological sex (at the time). That's very different to social spaces which are all about gender.

The trouble is there are individuals who want to deny biological sex in ALL situations including when it comes to their health because they are that determined they are the opposite sex.

This is where it is undeniably either a cult or verged firmly into the realms mental illness where a person will harm themselves because they believe in something that strongly and deeply.

And demonstrates quite clearly that gender can not replace sex, because it is inadequate.

Being nice, supportive and accomodating about it, doesn't change this. Indeed it might well add to the chances of harm being done.

Knock it off with the social spaces crap. Places where women are undressed and therefore vulnerable are intimate spaces.

No. They are social spaces. If it was a private cubicle nobody would care. It is because there are other people there that people do care. It is what other people might see, or say, of do that matters. It is the social nature of the space which matters. And that is all about gender and our understanding of how we fit into that social space.

I don't have a gender identity, I have a sex.

Please don't force unwanted labels on people.

The truth is that someone is comfortable in a space feels comfortable if his/her gender identity matches the sex of all those in the space - and the greater the dissonance between the two, the less comfortable people are - but it is impossible to have that discussion because gender critical feminists refuse to accept that gender identity exists.

I would like to see an explanation that in some way objectively explains and substantiates the concept of 'gender identity', I can't find one anywhere.This means that I have very little recourse when I try to analyse it. It seems that either I can view it as a weak claim with little or no material substance, akin to a 'religious' experience or I can view it from a personal standpoint.

If I view it from a personal standpoint it makes no sense to me whatsoever. I was born female, I was socialised in a culture that has particular expectations of those who are born female. I do not however 'feel' female. I know I am female because that's how I am classified. I know what I have in common with other females which is a particular lived experience that I share both biologically, socially and culturally. How I 'feel' impacts on aspects of my material existence but it doesn't account for it.

It doesn't necessarily matter how I 'feel' in a space, I actually prefer male company on the whole. I've also spent more time with gay men, transwomen than I have with other women. I find a number of the topics that as a 'woman' the culture expects me to engage with rather irrelevant.

HOWEVER I do know that being female makes a difference to my material reality and that of other females. I don't feel more comfortable in certain 'female' spaces because I am sexed 'female' or culturally gendered as such but because in material/factual terms I am safer. Women in parts of India don't walk for miles to find a women's loo because of lack of dissonance between their sexed/gendered selves, but because it is materially safer.

This leads me to another problem I have, the issues that are attributed as 'petty' ideological concerns of UK women have extensive implications. If this idea that safe spaces for women depend on gendered identity becomes the dominant how will that impact on wider policies for women here and elsewhere?

Places where women are undressed and therefore vulnerable are intimate spaces

Yes, that exactly how I see them, it's strike me as odd that anyone would describe them as social, unless it's just another attempt to blur the lines.

Not everyone has a gender identity...

Of course they do. Read all the posts in FWR about how people associate their identity with menstruation, or giving birth, or breast feeding. Every time someone asserts that things like that matter, they are asserting a gender identity, they are asserting what their womanhood means to them. Because their gender identity is aligned to their sex, that it is a gender identity is easily overlooked. Watch body swap movies. The whole story line is that people only realise that they have a gender identity after the swap.

Yy Sarah I can’t think of any purely social spaces that are segregated by sex... this would be illegal under the EA.

Sorry OP, I haven’t read any responses to your post so apologies if this has already been linked.

This article is pretty neutral. It’s from 4 years ago so things have moved on a bit since it was written but you will be able to copy and paste a few statements that outline the basic premise of the two differing opinions.

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/08/04/woman-2

Knock it off with the social spaces crap. Places where women are undressed and therefore vulnerable are intimate spaces.

‘Most people’ another ideologically driven unevidenced claim...

It is also factually incorrect that testosterone is the only factor or even the most important factor.

The fact that despite having a masculine gender identity the transman who died remained biologically female but had been treated as though they were male is incredibly important in that death...

That's very different to social spaces which are all about gender

What exactly do you consider to be a social space snappity?

Most spaces that are separated by sex I wouldn't regard as social spaces.

And no, that a lot of people do not feel excluded by sex based segregation and do not feel uncomfortable with their sexed body is not evidence that everyone has a gender identity...

Point B. is particularly relevant given the transman who died as a direct result of negligent healthcare due in part to their biology being ignored.

Healthcare needs depend on biological sex (at the time). That's very different to social spaces which are all about gender.

It's also why competitive sport isn't generally a major area of contention because most people recognise that it is about physiology, not gender, and in particular exposure to testosterone.

Not everyone has a gender identity...

What harm (credible evidence) comes to people who don’t get included in sex segregated spaces based on gender identity?

No, that’s inverting the whole situation. The lobbying is for people with a feminine gender identity but male biology to be included in a totally different system based on female sex.

The harm to someone comes if they are not included in the space which matches their gender identity. That applies to everyone, trans, intersex.. everyone. So, if we are talking about harm or feeling vulnerable or unsafe that is a statement about gender identity.

Well, points A and B

‘Correct verso’ 🙄 no, that’s both factually incorrect and ideologically driven... a neutral description wouldn’t make these claims re beliefs as though they are facts.