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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Guardian article on lesbians, sex and orgasms goes trans inclusive and loses coherence

31 replies

5inga5ong · 11/07/2018 12:30

Did anyone else see this article this weekend?

Do Lesbians Have Better Sex Than Straight Women

It's quite a typical broadsheet feature on sex - light reading, no deep research, a few light supporting interviews, etc. Just the sort of thing you'd expect to find in the features section, really.

It does come a bit of a cropper when it tries to be trans-inclusive in one of its supporting paragraphs, though. Not, I'd like to point out, BECAUSE it is trying to be inclusive, but because although I've read it several times I think the author's efforts to inclusivity have made her writing ambiguous and left her point unsupported.. (I can't imagine what it must be like to be a sub editor these days.)

^Jessica says that women tend to be better at listening and communicating in bed (and perhaps outside of the bedroom, too – it is not clear whether those abundant news stories about women speaking thousands more words a day than men stand up, but understanding and empathy are areas in which women excel). There is a strong emotional connection between women, too.

Alice Martin, a 20-year-old trans lesbian, says the same. “As a woman having sex with another woman, it’s a completely mind-bending experience. The mix of care, love, romance, pleasure, emotion and intensity is something that I never experienced with men.”^

So, the author is taking the position that women are more emotional and feel sex more emotionally than men do. (I personally disagree with this as it doesn't match up with my lived experience, but hey ho.)

The ambiguity is around Alice's situation, identify, context, and how it relates to the point that author is making about women being more emotionally connected in sex then men are.

  • At first, I thought Alice was born male and identified as straight, and she transitioned to being a transwoman and then identified as lesbian. Then I realised that she was comparing her sexual experiences with men and with women.
  • So then I thought that Alice was born male and identified as bi, but then transitioned to being a transwoman stopped being bi and became lesbian only. (This seems most likely to me, but it's not clear. And of course then I want to know Alice's story and why bi was okay, but then not, even if it's not the point of the article.)

And THEN I started wondering, if you're in a male body but you've only had emotional sex when you let yourself be emotional because you are thinking of yourself as a woman, is the emotional bit really attached to "being a woman" or is it attached "giving yourself permission to have emotionally connected sex with someone else who is emotionally connected?"

And then I started thinking that the author needed to have another quote to bolster her "women have more emotionally connected sex than men do" point, but from a natal female identifying as bi who enjoyed sex with men and women but who found her same sex experiences more emotionally connected. But that wasn't there.

And then I realised that the article starts off with links to a website full of drawings of different types of vulvas to help women feel better and more normalised about their female genitals so they can have better female orgasms, and then my headed exploded with the contradictions and I stopped reading.

OP posts:
FloralBunting · 11/07/2018 13:09

I was a bit confused as to why a transwoman was quoted for experience when much of the article focused on lesbian sex bring better because women know where the clitoris is and how to stimulate it. You genuinely can't get any more based in natural biology than that.

So, regardless of 'identification', a transwoman is never going to instinctively know where the clitoris is and how it works, because even they have had surgery, they don't have one! Weird article.

WeAreGerbil · 11/07/2018 13:01

I've had sex with men and women inside and outside relationships, they could have interviewed me, though I would have said not much difference emotionally (the best connected sex I've had was with a man). I would say the difference in orgasm rates is partly down to you having to make more effort in same sex sex, so when you have it you're more committed to doing it "properly" whereas it's easy with a man to be happy for them to come without being that bothered or making the effort yourself! There's probably also more coercive sex. I don't entirely understand the what point the trans comment is making either.

noeffingidea · 11/07/2018 13:00

It would nice to have an article about women that doesn't need to involve a transwoman.

Offred · 11/07/2018 12:53

(And obviously it doesn’t relate to lesbian sex vs heterosexual sex really)

Offred · 11/07/2018 12:52

The main thing I thought re the incoherence was all the ‘women know other women’s bodies and feelings’ and then an interview with a trans person...

I was thinking ‘OK... but unless the trans person is talking about their experiences with other trans people who share biology and also the same actual experiences (surgery, medication etc) and feelings then how does this actually relate to the rest of the article?!’

I also thought ‘well TBH this could be evidence that this stuff about feelings and talking IS sexist stereotyping and motivation matters’ but then I realised that one of the big problems re heterosexual sex for women is that men just think they are really great at it and that every woman they sleep with had a really great time on the basis that they enjoyed themselves... sometimes even when there are obvious and clear indicators the women felt ‘meh’ or ‘urgh’ or worse....

Sadcister · 11/07/2018 12:37

It's insane isn't it! Such a mess