India Willoughby has had facial feminisation surgery

Sorry for the derail. But I wonder if people who have plastic surgery have weird numb patches and tingling sensations like you can get with other injuries. The face is so full on nerve endings - and the genitals - i'm sure you'd feel weird for the rest of your life. I've never heard it mentioned though.

There is a much wider picture and one which asks questions of many, including the media & journalism.

There's a great deal of manipulation and exploitation happening and it is complex.

There is a strong link between narcissism and plastic surgery.

It's very sad to see a false self grow over a fragile self, then the narcissistic rage of the false self exploding when exposed. When all along there was nothing wrong with fragile real self, hidden under the narcissistic mask.

India is clearly using the media to fund thr surgery. It can't be easy having people criticising your looks on the Internet but that's the cost of being a "celebrity" and making money more easily than average people. The sceptic in me thinks that it's an investment in her career as India is competing for work against younger people like Paris Lees.

I wonder how much India's looks have been criticised compared to others who have had surgery/appeared on reality shows like Kylie Jenner and Katie Price?

Dick

Yes, I think there is causal root that is similar in women who have plastic surgery and IW's who have plastic surgery.

The hyperbole is strong in that one.

I don’t feel sorry for IW in the same way as I don’t feel sorry for someone like Katie Price, who to my mind has also had fuckton of needless facial alterations, as it is their body and the are adults capable of making considered decisions with regards to what they think will make them happy.

However, in both respects, I consider them both to be chasing an impossible ideal. If IW thinks that facial féminisation is akin to becoming female, or that others will now consider them female because their face less resembles that of a man then I fear they are setting themselves up for disappointment. But that is their issue and they are not owed the suspension of reality by anybody else, just because they put themselves through an expensive and painful procedure rather than tackle their disordered thinking.

There is a strong link between transgender and depression-I hope India gets the mental support needed to keep India stable.

I read an article (in the Times perhaps) about a FF surgeon in the US - the description of what happens during it was, um, not for the faint hearted

I caught the interview, and was struck when India said about the incident with Ann Widdecombe using the unacceptable pronoun that India had found it so unbelievable because India had been "sitting there, in a dress, with make up on and long hair" and Ann clearly still hadn't automatically treated India as a female.
I recall at the time feeling that it was clear India really believed they read as female, and had been surrounded by people up to that point who had cosseted this notion. When faced with the reality that other women could quite obviously tell India was not female born, India responded with real aggression.
I venture to suggest that, far from the facial surgery being a necessary response to stop bullies, it is rather a decision borne out of trying to chase the elusive goal of convincing people that India can be indistinguishable from a born woman.
Humanly speaking, that's a sad situation.

It's all about self promotion. India could have had all this done and made no mention of it, and decline to talk about it if asked. It's just another step in the media career for India.

If bullying by trolls was the reason for the surgery then the plastic surgeon should be investigated for performing this surgery. Negative external influences should be identified and addressed before going ahead with 11 hours worth of plastic surgery.

I saw the article and felt sad for India but what they experienced in between bf judges on B.B. is no worse than a lot of the women get - Helen or jade for example were openly mocked as ugly stupid dogs / bitches / munters.
India was called “a man” which is different wording but the experience was very similar. India experienced almost exactly what many many women in the public eye endure.

All the surgery in the world won't change your chromosomes.

If people want plastic surgery (for any reason) that's an individual choice.

Do the heads still grow at the same rate when XY children are given puberty blockers as other XY children?
Do the bones grow slower or XY children?
Does their shoulder bones reduce in size and their pelvis grow larger?

Do the heads grow larger in XX children on puberty blockers than XX children not on the medication?
Do their bones and muscles grow larger than other XX children?
Do their shoulders grow larger and does the pelvis reduce in size?

I don't feel sorry for India. Anyone who throws narc rage over an eighty-year-old woman because she did not genuflect sufficiently is unlikely to excite my sympathy. And now it seems as though that rage paid for cosmetic surgery, I'm even less inclined to think kindly of India. Got enough clicks and outrage to afford it by abusing an octogenarian? Charming.

I make sure I don't feel sorry for India. My natural compassionate instincts need suppressing when it comes to manipulative delusional narcs.

Your pity is your weakness and it will be used against you.

If India is pleased with the results, then go be happy India, I genuinely mean that.

There was a shot taken from behind and I read what I saw as a man with a ponytail.

The surgeon is happy to take the money.

I feel sad for people that are very unhappy with their body.

The way an XY body is put together and it's motion, along with the size of head and smells it omits can't be changed.

Shortly after the interview, India (as seen in the article) publically announced her change of opinion about self-id.

It was interesting which Twitter TRAs she also seemed to align with, retweet etc etc.

If, as India suggests, we are heading for a new Stonewall riot, the trans activists will be playing the role of the police.

India Willoughby is an adult and so of course has the right to have any plastic surgery that she is able to afford.

The context of this being due to 'online trolls' is worth considering and also the effects of the media platform that India has in sharing her opinions.

This piece was written by India for Pink News 24th April 2018, shortly after the interview with India, Justine Roberts and Julia Hartley-Brewer on LBC. The context for the interview being that Justine Roberts had gone public on the pressures being exerted by TRAs to shut down discussion here and that MN intended to continue to try to support free civil discussion.

India Willoughby: Britain’s rampant transphobia has me worried for my life

(article in full)
"We’re heading for a modern day Stonewall riot – unless the government and media clamp down on what has become rampant transphobia.

Transgender people are being bullied and hounded like never before – and we need to be very careful about where all this unfettered hate dressed up as “free speech” is going.

The Sunday Times, Daily Mail and – wait for it – Mumsnet – are hounding trans women in the same way Hitler went about stigmatising Jewish people.

Seriously. That’s no exaggeration.

The tabloids are no surprise, but Mumsnet?

Yeah, what is supposed to be a family-friendly parenting site has it’s claws out for the trans community.

And it all feels very orchestrated.

Every Sunday, regular as clockwork, I wake up to tabloid tales warning that society as we know it will end if trans women are further accommodated into normal society. Deviant, dirty sex monsters. Mentally-ill, deluded and dangerous. A cult leading youngsters astray. It’s like being back in the 1970s with the News of the World.

Even trans kids are seen as fair game. Radio hosts warning of assaults and unwanted pregnancies because trans girls have been allowed into the Girl Guides.

What’s the problem? Girls have been in the Scouts since 1991 and the world is still spinning.

And now we have groups of hardliners who will never accept trans women on any level, travelling the country, fanning the flames of hate.

Last year, I attended an event with lots of other LGBT people at Downing Street, where Theresa May promised to make the lives of trans people safer and easier, with the implementation of a new Gender Recognition Act. A key point of which will be allowing trans people to legally self-identify as a man or woman, without jumping through numerous bureaucratic hoops.

I totally get why many women might have concerns about this, given there have been so many ridiculous over-the-top debates where the scenario of sex-offender in a dress is trotted out.

It just doesn’t bear up to scrutiny though. Honestly. Self-identification in no way incentivises someone to commit a sex offence. It doesn’t make it easier or more likely.

Waving a piece of paper or shouting “I’m a woman” is not going to buy any leniency from the police or courts.

I admit – I wasn’t convinced about self ID myself to begin with, but the evidence from around the world is irrefutable. I was categorically wrong, and fell for the hysteria.

Portugal, Ireland, Norway, Columbia, Malta, Belgium, Denmark and Argentina have or are adopting the same legislation – and there have been no spikes is assaults.

Women’s areas will not become dangerous places when the Gender Recognition Act is passed.

At our garden party, Mrs May admitted her party’s reputation on LGBT matters was poor, but promised that was going to change.

We all clinked glasses, ate cucumber sandwiches and had our photo taken with the PM.

Nothing has happened.

The act has stalled through pressure from hardline feminist groups, who see all trans women as potential rapists in dresses.

Cabinet minister Lis Truss has now tweeted her support for Mumsnet, despite the site hosting rampant transphobia. She needs hauling in to the PM’s office – and Theresa May needs to keep her promise about protecting trans people.

And where’s Amber Rudd, the government’s Women’s and Equalities Minister, in this? What has she got to say about about this persecution of a tiny group of women? The silence is deafening.

I defy anyone to visit Mumsnet right now, look up transgender, and tell me that the vicious and mocking threads about trans people would be allowed about any other demographic. It’s the stuff of pitchforks and lanterns. The same rhetoric about race, religion on sexuality would lead to prosecutions and official condemnation.

Mumsnet CEO Justine Roberts squeals that trans people highlighting the content – including threads which out trans people – to some of the site’s main advertisers is out of order. She describes it as an attack on free speech. This might be a shock to Justine, but trans people have free speech, too.

There’s even a debate about introducing a new trans Section 28, clamping down on educating the public about what transgender is.

Justine is adamant there’s nothing transphobic on Mumsnet. Only reasoned debate. She wants transgender visitors to Mumsnet to be “happy and supported.” It feels reminiscent of when Cruella de Vil opens a home for stray dogs in 101 Dalmatians.

As I say, take a look for yourself. Trans groups are more than happy to debate any subject Justine or her murky corner of the web wants – but the material on the site isn’t a discussion. It’s vicious, nasty persecution

Mumsnet’s reputation for transphobia is fully deserved. Hardliners openly strategise ways to make life tougher for trans people: Passengers warned not to travel on sleeper trains because they might end up in the same sleeping berth as a woman who’s trans. Support gathered to stop trans women being allowed on Labour’s all-women shortlists. National meeting organised where they can clap and cheer their hatred.

It’s all very similar to the way the National Front used to operate.

I’m sure most people who use the site are decent folk. They want nothing to do with the rabid mouth-frothing going on by so-called “feminists.”

And I say so-called “feminists” quite deliberately. It’s the point which is paralysing anyone doing anything about the situation. Because these radical groups are hiding under the “feminist” banner, Government and other institutions are reluctant to question them. They don’t want to be perceived as attacking “women’s rights.”

But this isn’t a them-and-us argument which pitches trans women against other women. We are women who make up a tiny one percent of the population. The chances are you don’t even know any of us.

All we want to do is use the appropriate bathroom or changing area, and get on with our lives.

Which is where I would ask all women who think of themselves as feminists, or equal rights supporters, to stand alongside trans women at the moment.

There are grandmothers, mothers, sisters and aunts out there who know the truth that their trans relatives are not serial sex offenders, or a threat to society.

They need to speak up among their own friends. Post online. Give a different perspective on trans people."

I would encourage people to consider their comments carefully

That's sad. I imagine that's quite gruelling surgery

But no amount of surgery can do the impossible.