What's wrong with fighting for the third space?

I'll just say again here shall I? Snappity's link is FAKE NEWS.

Barbara Dunkelman (not Henkelman) is not trans, she didn't "start HRT at 13 and therefore experience female puberty".

Not very fair of you to keep referencing her (and getting her bloody name wrong) Flutterby. Not really on to keep touting her as an example of a passing transwoman.

Her colleague however is trans. Spot the difference? roosterteeth.wikia.com/wiki/Kdin_Jenzen

Ok, hands up...I've used the wrong pronouns. However, biological sex just isn't a huge issue for me.

As a woman this probably sounds terrible but two women a week being killed is an utterly vanishing number given how many million there are in the UK. I just don't understand why people get so incredibly overwrought about what is likely to be the actions of reprobates vastly unrepresentative of the average male and likely also linked to drugs/alcohol abuse in many instances.

Seriously, many posters on here would likely be much better focusing on quitting smoking/losing weight if they were truly worried about reality, rather than fretting about a proportionately tiny statistic committed by criminals.

You really need to stop comparing potentially narcissistic trans women to black folk.

When black people demanded an end to Jim Crow laws it wasn't because they wanted to "live as white people".

It's really not a very good analogy at all.

My first reaction to Alex Drummond was "he's not trying very hard", which seems to me to be at odds with the mindset of somebody who is desperate to be the sex they feel they should've been.

However, he says "I knew that simply shaving my beard and putting breasts on wasn’t going to make me pass, and I used to work for an architect and he used to say 'When you’re designing something you either make it very deliberately level or very deliberately off'."

So maybe he would try and pass if he thought he could.

I feel like I would welcome into my space somebody who genuinely wanted to live as a woman - i.e. not a crazy narcissist or a criminal. Of course, it may be hard to tell the difference in certain cases but the same could also be said about the other minority groups we were discussing whom we as a society give the benefit of the doubt.

There likely has to be a line drawn somewhere, but I'm not convinced that all transfolk should use the bathroom of their birth sex.

The line is drawn outside of the women's facilities. Don't step over it.

We have unisex loos at work. The men leave the seats up and piss all over the floor. They rarely wash their hands. We know because women talk to each other.

Management sent out a polite notice to all staff after we raised it collectively.

A one sentence email of 'stop cocking your legs up' would have sufficed.

I'm sick of being polite because dicks want to piss wherever they want. Right now they're pissing all over my rights.

But Snappity's delusions gave me a good old chuckle.

I think that you ought to familiarize yourself with what "transwoman" currently means, since you seem to be using a definition that's rather different to the one everyone else is using.

Do you think that Barbara Henkelman should get changed in front of the men's football team?

I know that I and other women certainly shouldn't have to put up with changing in front of any men in our women's changing room. Self-id gives any of them permission to invite themselves in.

Barbara H should probably get changed with BH’s own team, whichever that may be!

Also I'd like to helpfully point out that referring to Alex as "he" is a deleteable and potentially bannable offense under the talk guidelines that MNHQ instigated in an attempt to appease trans activists. Every major organization representing trans rights in the UK would agree that Alex is a she because Alex says so and therefore has a right to access whichever women's spaces Alex pleases. So perhaps your time would be better spent familiarizing yourself with their guidelines rather than scolding women on Mumsnet for not being nice.

Do you think that Barbara Henkelman should get changed in front of the men's football team?

You might like to check out the title of the thread? A novel idea, I know.

In some ways it is. I think the issues that affect me as a woman transcend race, and class, and religion. I spent many years working abroad and in expat communities - women’s groups have shown me that what women experience is the largely the same the world over and it’s due to our biology. There’s no real difference between me and an Iranian woman or a Kenyan woman other than our skin colour and some cultural mores. More unites us than divides us.

I really dislike the ‘oh it’s just like being racist, crime blah blah’ angle because as has been pointed out above, it’s not analogous. MEN commit 98% of violent crime. To say race is the same is like saying that racial group x commit 98% of crime - it’s just not true.

So many poorly informed people and their important opinions.

AngryAttackKittens

Do you think that Barbara Henkelman should get changed in front of the men's football team?

Well I'd suggest having a chat with Stonewall then, since you appear to be working with both a definition of "transwoman" and an idea of which ones ought to be given access to women's spaces that's rather different to theirs.

There likely has to be a line drawn somewhere, but I'm not convinced that all transfolk should use the bathroom of their birth sex.

Where shall we draw this line that you hadn't thought about before?

I am thinking that there a e dIf fervent understanding of what a unisex space could be? Why would unisex not be safe?

I think they could be safe if there were fully self contained, secure , individually private ( I agreee that it would need much more space ) ?

Midgebabe.

I meant "race is more uniting than sex".

So, nothing to say about how Alex fits into your theory of transwomen in women's spaces, Flutterby? In the event that you're unfamiliar I will point out that dismissing Alex's identity as a transwoman may be a bit of a problem given that Alex is a representative of Stonewall.

AngryAttackKittens

Having watched the first 20 seconds I'd not say he's in the same category as Barbara Henkelman. He sounds a bit narcissistic with his "widening the bandwidth" comment.

There likely has to be a line drawn somewhere, but I'm not convinced that all transfolk should use the bathroom of their birth sex.

I doubt many people would agree that they're similar to a typical laddish bloke - which is likely why so many gay males stereotypically seem to gravitate towards female friends.

Notwithstanding my disagreement with this statement, do you think women should invite gay men into our spaces as well?

PS they're not all gay. Most of them are straight.

Ah..agreed. Transwomen are diffent to ordinary blokes

But they are even more different to ordinary women

And plenty of them have retained a large dollop of male entitlement

Absolutely to this.

Totally agree. Race is much more complex, but nevertheless the aspects of race that lead to racism are encoded in biology.

someone was saying that . " biology is more uniting than race" is the same as saying " biology is more uniting than a subset of biology" which didn't make sense