What's wrong with fighting for the third space?

Also I am happy to share spaces with HotRocker, in case that wasn't clear, because butch women are women. Repeat after me, Snappity!

Unlike some people I promise not to have it projected onto the sides of buildings, because when I read 1984 I didn't interpret it as a how-to book.

These constant appeals to female socialization aren't working.

They make me go "fuck off, mate" - even when they're right (which transactivists aren't).

I missed all the upset I think?

I apologise if I’m offending people. I know this is a very upsetting subject and that many women are particularly vulnerable, I had hoped that I was putting forwards our case.

Like it or not, the Equality Act requires institutions to balance rights. We are unlikely to be overturning that. It means we need to make our case, it actually helps if onlookers see that the other side is represented because it helps us to refine arguments that carry water.

We will not be the judge of this, we can only persuade and present evidence to support our arguments. We will not succeed if we take the same “no debate” stance.

Not liking the attempt to chivvy Rufus into line. You leave our reindeer alone!

Seriously though, dunno why anyone thinks that scolding other commenters like they're naughty children and mummy is very disappointed in them is going to accomplish anything other than making the person being scolded make obscene gestures at their screen.

What about if I don't make an effort. Do I have to use the gents?

I haven't made an effort since I was about twenty. Gents ahoy!

No

Plus apparently teenage boy wee gets rid of foxes

??! Why would foxes have an aversion to the piss of teenage boys specifically? Seems like an odd evolutionary adaptation.

(Also seems OT, BUT then you realize that even bloody foxes can apparently tell male and female humans apart by smell and look, we're back on topic again.)

I'm not making much of an effort today, on account of it's been hot and I can't be arsed. Should I have to use the men's until I can be bothered to put on some lippy?

These constant appeals to female socialization aren't working. You'd think the people making them would have noticed that by now and changed strategies, but I suppose that, threats, and baroque theories of biology are all they have really. Which is why #nodebate was the initial plan.

I have no idea what makes you think you have the authority to talk to Rufus like that, Rat. Personal attacks are forbidden here in FWR.

I suppose that explains why so many get extensive feminization surgeries while keeping their penis and scrotum intact.

Pratchet, Can we go together?

Plus apparently teenage boy wee gets rid of foxes

So that must count as well...

The guidance more or less sets out that there is a sliding scale for whether gender reassigned individuals should be treated as their preferred gender in every instance.

Yes, Pratchet, if your womaning is substandard then we will revoke your privileges.

*Disclaimer: sex-based rights are not a privilege you can earn through extra effort if you aren't actually the relevant sex.

pratchet

Yep

And they are usually smelly...

Dh said its to do with the flushing

There was a brief fragment of light earlier on.

Perception was mentioned. In some posts about the church of England and their EA exemptions.

Because perception and beliefs are, in essence, what the crux of the issue is.

What is really being asked for, is someone else's beliefs and self perceptions to override others' own beliefs and perceptions.

That's a big ask. And an even bigger ask based on trust, rather than fact. It's very hard to prove a belief.

The whole effort thing comes from the Equality Act and the EHRC guidance.

What about if I don't make an effort. Do I have to use the gents?

Right, so is there are grading of effort? Does a transwoman who has had facial feminisation surgery get an A for effort, whilst another who hasn't bothered to shave gets a D?

What complete nonsense. It also betrays a completely reductive and facile way of looking at women; that we should be judged on how we look alone.

FOTTFSOF.

My personal view is that anyone who tries to fit in, no matter how unsuccessfully, belongs in a space. It is effort, not success, which matters to me

Textbook example of entitlement, this.

The Equality Act as it stands is not changing. Transgender people have to be (where proportionate and legitimate etc etc) treated as their preferred gender. Sex is a protected characteristic and the exemptions can be used to maintain sex separate services and spaces.

Some, including me, would like a presumption that sex exemptions should be invoked but that is not what the Act says. Neither does it say transgender rights supersede sex though. There has to be a balance.

Our institutions are inherently biased against women and will tend toward favouring transwomen. They are not undertaking equality impact assessments; they are not considering the needs of vulnerable women. They have to be made aware that they are failing to do due diligence,

With = were
I rejoined the conversation ten seconds ago and even I can tell that

rejecting those who don't pass while ignoring those who do is hardly a principled position

They should all stay out of female spaces. Some have a better disguise though.

Yy floral

Im just horrified at the sharing lipstick one

Thats not hygienic surely

The lurkers I actually mentioned with those who thought you debating consent was a pile of wank.

Sorry, what? Do you call that a sentence?