Are we the baddies?

Ratpoly said ‘Not every Nazi was a psychopath, obviously’

No, of course not, eugenics was pretty much accepted science across the western world. What Nazi biomedicine did was introduce racial anthropology into it too. So many Nazi doctors believed genuinely that killing disabled babies and children as well as so-called ‘inferior races’ was for the good of the German nation.

Many other German doctor left in 1933 because they themselves were ousted from the medical service as Communists, Jews, left-wing socialists. Many of those who stayed did not agree with the killing programmes and tried to save who they could. Very few were brave enough to speak out.

So, no, not all Nazis were psychopaths, but the Nazi state was based on an ideology of race and indeed also sex. (Aryan women should have more children; no -Aryan or mentally deficient women should be sterilised or have abortions).

Nowadays, I doubt you would find anyone who would subscribe to Nazi eugenics, we know it was wrong and the atrocities it led to. But it relied on doctors to enact, and many of them believed they were acting for the greater good.

So yes, the Nazis were not all psychopaths, but the ideology came from men, not a vacuum, and it was extremely dangerous.

Floral, there have been others in the past like bespin who would not impose into women's spaces. SOme were frightened that the third space option would "out" them, which then implies that secure unisex might be a better solution. ( under the assumption that violence agaiant trans people will go away as fast as violence against women )

Is sex needed on a passport? Especially now they are biometric?

It would be possible to show everyone as X but can you imagine the fuss it would cause?

PeakPants but a lot of non binary people are campaigning for that very thing infact lost the court case. re. passports the other day. would you be happy. to support that and other things that non. binary people campaign for?

Sorry, support what? I am happy to support third spaces. I was being sarcastic re the unisex prisons and sports- I think that is grossly unfair to women whose physical differences will almost always render them inferior to men.

Serena Williams, arguably the greatest female tennis player of all time, would only rank around number 250 if she was a man. That merits some consideration. She would never even get a sniff of Wimbledon if everything was unisex.

Is sex needed on a passport? Especially now they are biometric?

What if we win?
Well, then women will get to retain the rights we fought for.
No gay and NGC children will be sterilised.
And trans people will gain their own spaces.

Sounds absolutely terrible, doesn't it

MIdgebabe as Pratchet discribed without bit where it is already gender neutral as for a group of people who think the third option is a good thing you seem to be quite dismissive of it in reality. I'd love you to get behind that though

No, we are not the baddies. I reflect on this daily, particularly seeing the genuine anguish and fragility of young, confused people caught up in the Tumblr whirl. When young lesbians I know are being gaslighted, I consider their rights and act accordingly.

Somebody wants to have a passport without their sex on. They say they are non binary and need a gender neutral passport.

Luckily their passport is already gender neutral, containing a note only of their sex, and not their gender.

I have exactly the experience prawn describes.

I got through it by understanding that I am the same ally to the marginalised that I always was. I know who I'm standing up for (women).

Isn't it interesting which posters are prepared to examine their consciences, and which just want to talk about other people's?

There's a pattern, if I can just put my finger on it...

As most don’t know trans people it is a scary unknown, or they think TRAs on Twitter represent all trans people.
In my opinion GC feminism is well intentioned but misguided.

Patronising, much? I know quite a few people under the 'trans' umbrella. On a personal level I like them all. On an idealogical level I do not, as none of them are the "old skool transsexuals with body dysmorphia" types, whose position I understand.

I don't think any of these particular trans people wish harm to women on a conscious level. I do think however that they are utterly unaware of their ingrained male privilege, and indeed the inherent misogyny in some of their positions when insisting on their identity being the biggest issue and absolutely #nodebate. Even whilst facing trials and tribulations I can never imagine, and for which I feel for them on a human level, they cannot offer the same empathy back to 'cis' women unless we are whole-hearted 'allies'.

I question myself A LOT on this issue, to answer the thread title. I whole-heartedly wish the whole thing would go away, in fact, and take up none of my headspace. I suspect many many trans people would say the same.

But fundamentally, when it comes right down to it, I believe that women are oppressed by their biology, and by the patriarchal society that compounds and exploits this with 'gender' bullshit. So as trans women can never escape their biology, they cannot ever be part of the class of people whose biology defines them. Ditto for trans men.

I am all for expression of personality. But it cannot just trample over facts for convenience and the sake of keeping the peace.

Bespin..what was the passport thing? ( these lists have been a little mental lately)

bd67th I am always interested in why some people don't want to do that. I have usually found it is younger trans people or people esrlyer in. transition when you are usually needing a lot. more validation from People to balance out the fact a lot of people are saying no you are not that. I think I was more inclined to that when I was younger and less confident in who I am so I do wonder if this is an experiance thing.

PeakPants but a lot of non binary people are campaigning for that very thing infact lost the court case. re. passports the other day. would you be happy. to support that and other things that non. binary people campaign for?

I was pretty 'live and let live' until I heard about 'trans children'.

Children being given powerful drugs which will leave them sterile and with no sexual function. We are not the baddies for objecting to that.

As most don’t know trans people it is a scary unknown, or they think TRAs on Twitter represent all trans people.

Oh whatever. I know trans people. It's not a scary unknown. It's the physical reality of male bodies in female spaces and in female sports. If there is no reason to segregate natal women and trans women, there is no need to segregate full stop. Let's just have a free for all and have unisex prisons and sports. Let's see who comes off the worse there.

@garam There is a transwoman Labour women's officer who thinks that uterus transplants will become possible (ignoring completely the huge differences between the male and female pelvis that will prevent a transwoman from gestating), transwomen who want to simulate menstruation by inserting fermentable foodstuffs into their bodies, and transwomen who appropriate the word "period" to describe induced symptoms caused by varying their hormonal therapy. Anyone who calls out this appropriation of female bodily functions is a "terf". So please don't say that everyone acknowledges that transwomen and females are biologically distinct, because a vocal subset of transwomen don't want to acknowledge that.

Bespin, with respect, you're the only trans-identifying person I've met on here that has given any serious support for the idea of a third space.
All the other vocal TRAs demand validation for transwomen are women and must therefore be allowed in the sexed space of their choice.
So yes, I'd say you are way south of 1% of the population if most other Transactivists aren't willing to go along with you and fight for third spaces.

You are transparent Daim. Now you're trying to portray us as scared through ignorance. 'We just need a lil eddymacation in all things trans' Naff off.

we are 1% of the population we don't have the power too effect that change

Well you have the power to effect pretty fundamental changes in the law, so yeah, if you wanted third spaces, you could campaign for them and you would probably get them. If you had no power to campaign for change, none of this debate would be taking place.

As most don’t know trans people it is a scary unknown, or they think TRAs on Twitter represent all trans people.

Have you ever counted how many times you have told this lie?

PeakPants

a major flaw in the whole debate is that people assume that there can only be two spaces. Why?

I think if we heard more about how we change society to. include this then then it might be a discussion mostly. when asked people just say its your problem sort. it out we are 1% of the population we don't have the power too effect that change.

as to why we need these spaces, personally because there are only. 2 choices and to function in. society demands I use one or the other for quite a lot of things then I am more closely aligned to woman than man so society as decided that I require those protections to be a functioning member of society

I think there are a few baddies but most GC women are genuinely concerned about women and children. As most don’t know trans people it is a scary unknown, or they think TRAs on Twitter represent all trans people.

In my opinion GC feminism is well intentioned but misguided. There is a tendency for GC feminists to get carried away and start shouting accusatory words like ‘child abusers’ and ‘rape culture’ which makes them look like baddies.

I have agonised over this question! How come I could come to the opposite conclusion to all of my 'comrades'? With whom I agreed on every other issue? But every time I have replayed things in my head and researched the other side I always come back to the same conclusion. We are right! Things just don't add up on the TRA 'side' I have this confirmed to me every time I try to discuss the actual issues in detail I either get shut down as t**f or met with silence. They cannot defend their position, it is illogical and doesn't stand up to scrutiny. More people are waking up to this truth every day.

Bespin at the end of the day, trans ideology does not stand up to common sense. You can argue all day long that you are a woman in your head, but your head is not the important part for issues of sex segregation, it's your body. I firmly believe in third spaces and a major flaw in the whole debate is that people assume that there can only be two spaces. Why?

Because trans ideology does not withstand common sense scrutiny, it requires absolutely blind adherence, which is why the debate is consistently shut down. Trans people are refusing to debate by saying that their right to exist should not be up for debate. But it's not their right to exist- it is their proclaimed right to access all female-only spaces seemingly for the sole purpose of validation. If it wasn't solely about validation, trans people would be campaigning for their own spaces, their own services etc. They are seeing their own interests in the equation but they are simply disregarding women's interests as bigoted and irrelevant. I am very curious as to why that is. What makes it so easy to dismiss concerns raised by people who certainly don't have a history of being bigoted?