Are we the baddies?

Thank you fox. I'm glad I had MN, otherwise I would have thought affirmation was the only way to go.

NewbieSpartacus

when I talked about bigotry I meant both sides when I talked about violance I ment our side though I'm not one for sides but it's easy short hand on here, in reality there is no drawn line on this again something those with bigoted views want to paint it as, we are all just people.

yes there is therapy at deals with issues but if someone is trans it will jot solve that for them. the nhs pathway includes therapy for a reason as transition is not the only problem that we face, like everyone else we have to face them too. what can happen is that we get so fixed on transition that we forget to deal with the other stuff too, I like to think it's like a big rock holding stuff down and when you finally remove the rock you can deal with all the other things underneath but you will still have to deal with them. I am not a big beleiver that transition will fix everything infact I know it will not but it might just give you a chance to start sorting everything else out once you have it out the way. transition is a process to work through there should be a point when it's over but life is all about transitions so you then move onto the next one and hopefully grow as a person.

I dislike some private provision as they minimise the therapy aspect and go for treatment hormones and surgery do not make us trans or cure us of being so. that I think is why so many people are not now going that route as before I do think the only. option was that especially in the nhs. I'd suggest watching the early documentary from the 80s about Julia grant and see the way the doctor spoke to her, though he did have a bit of a god complex by all accounts talking to people who were under him.
it is not certain that your sons path will lead to transition and like you say them will need to be very certain of that and beleive me there is no one who questions this thing more than a trans person the night before surgery lol

anyway I hope some of that helps I'm not trying to score points, I have worked with parents in your position before and they are frightened and want the best. all you can do is support nothing will change who they are if that is who they are not social media or therapy. talking and working through things is the best way to help them. find the right path having a fixed view point can hinder that if you appear to not be listening to them they will stop talking to you about that thing.

Good luck with guiding your kid through, newbie. Difficult times, wishing you strength

I can't help but contrast your attitude with a friend of mine with a GNC kid who has been plastering facebook with invective about T*RFs ruining Pride and how they basically wish her kid dead. There's no way that kid can ever change his mind with his mother going to bat at every oppurtunity against the HATEFUL BIGOTS WHO ARE WRONG AND HATEFUL. Your attitude seems much, much healthier.

I would still like to know what "emotionally female" means in snappity's interpretation, because at first glance it's making me want to sound the gender stereotype klaxon.

DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg - presumably you are talking about redefining marriage to include gay people?

I think this is the opposite of that in fact. We wanted to give same sex couples the same rights as opposite sex ones, that was the intention, all the laws were checked, to make sure it would all still work as expected etc. I didn't feel strongly about the word marriage. Others did. I would have been fine with completely splitting the concepts - let churches do marriage, and the government do the legal partnership bit.

What's happening here is the silencing of people trying to say that before we rush headlong into it, let's check everything will still work as it should for the existing people defined as 'women', if we add a new law to let anyone define themselves as a woman.

I don't think that the existing laws will work under this circumstance and therefore selfid shouldn't pass until this is solved. I suspect that it is impossible to reconcile the two in a way that activists will be happy with, as it has to acknowledge the biological roots of women's oppression

(And yes, lippy, breastfeeding was the wrong example as it is covered up to 6 months under the pregnancy exemption)

Also Bespin, I don't believe transition is the ONLY solution; I think it's possible to have therapy that goes into your issues without it being called conversion therapy. For example, trauma and abuse can sometimes be at the root of the desire to transition. In my child's case I think pressure from other people is a factor. Without delving into the background, people can transition but then still be unhappy because the root cause is still there.

And can you just clarify, you said about extremists and threats of violence, were you talking about TRAs? Not both sides.

Thanks Bespin. Yes I would always support them no matter what, I just want him to be happy obviously. He has to express himself however he likes. On the other hand I have said to him I'm proud of you and you're amazing, but I'm never going to say a kid with a male frame has done a brilliant thing by winning a girls' race. (My kid isn't sporty but you get the idea). And you should be very sure before you have hormones or surgery. The difficulty with teens these days is the mass of pressure online affirming trans ideology and that's what brings us to these disagreements.

Someone who says someone else is "on the wrong side of history" are usually trying to convince themselves. It's the new version of "god is on our side".

NewbieSpartacus

I don't think this new GC view is based on bigotry of the past. I beleive on the whole these are genuine questions. though there are some bigots in this debate who cheepen your views when they go too far, they are a small minority. we also have them ours seen to threaten violance to anyone who apposed there view. we always have to remember not everyone who supports our views as the same aims.

how old is your son (I'm assuming trans feminine)
is this something they have always been or is it just them experimenting. if they go on to socially transition will you support there choice I ask as my mother can and will not do that and will never change. I know she loves me still but that this is the hardest thing for her to deal with the loss of her son.
it's something I have always tried to explain to trans young people when they expect there parents to simply except who they are over night.
well it's late but I'm happy to discuss this tomorrow you are certainly not the bad guy in this no patent if a trans child is they are simply doing what they think is best to protect there child. all you can ask is that your view on this is not too fixed and thst if this is who they are that when they need that support and they will as this journey is no walk in the park that you are there for them if you believe this ideology or not does not matter. I've often told parents and young trans people it's ok to wait but that if it's who they are that wait can not be indefinite
.

💪🏻💪🏻👏🏻👏🏻 the young ones don't realise we've seen more gender non-conformity than they can imagine and we thought it was great

Daim Bespin

No! You're not getting it! You think you know us but you don't.

Bespin, you think GC feminists are old fashioned/ wrong side of history
Daim you said misguided, trying to protect women and children.

No - that's not me. Old fashioned anti LGBT views were based on bigotry and fear of diversity. GC people fucking love diversity! We hate the prison of gender norms. I'm GC BECAUSE I'm protecting MY trans child. Because I want him to have a full joyous life of embracing who he is in all his quirky non-conforming glory. Because I don't want him to think the way to happiness is by mutilating his body and sacrificing his fertility. Because I want him to learn to love himself AND RESPECT WOMEN so he can build fabulous relationships. I'm not harming my kids - trans ideology is. I am not a baddie.

Thank you Pratchet. (You're not so pithy 😂)

dog Tbh am sure not one working class person believes any o& this stuff. Not oneb
Dog speaking the truth again! I look at my sanctimonious sjw kids and it's their middle class privilege showing. They've never had a real problem in their lives and this is the cause they decided on

Best wishes Newbie for steering through everything with your child.

Absolutely question myself on this all the time. My kids (one trans) think I'm a terf and it's the most hurtful thing in the world. It would be so much easier to give them what they think they want. I have to stick with my gut though and if I tell my kid you can change sex they will end up disappointed. Also I can't encourage my male born child to access female facilities because it's unfair. My view is I obviously love him more than anything and that won't change whatever his name, clothes etc are. However medical treatment should be a last resort. Also, transition is a choice he is free to make, but that may go hand in hand with losing some privileges such as competitive sport etc. I feel in my heart that the GC view is the truth but it is still a troubling and confusing situation.

I've always preferred being unemotionally female, drives misogynists mad.

Go on to some men's websites and ask them what THEY'RE going to do to make transwomen feel more comfortable safe, whether in a sex-segregated space or any other.

A million times this, then please report back.

Top tip for womaning, Floral

You can, of course, interject through out the discourse with subtle dabs of the handkerchief to the corners of the eyes if you don't want to overplay your emotional hand too soon.

OK, let's have a definition of "emotionally female".

(Does one need to be under 5ft8 and emotionally female or will just the one do?)

Remember, as a woman, crying is your strongest suit. Don't use it too early.

And if men's spaces are dangerous, but they wouldn't come into female spaces because of reasons, then why the assumption they will come into spaces for gender-non-conforming people?
I mean, given that TRAs have proven time and again what gentle, delicate souls they are, why would you be worried about sharing a space with them?

Just simper for a bit, see how it goes.

Or should I cry, delicately? 😢