Grace Petrie on London protests

On the contrary LBGTQIA - our methods ARE working. More women are waking up to this every day. And it’s a one way street. People aren’t starting off GC and becoming transactivists. Once you see the misogyny you cannot under it.

Sadly though, some people just don’t want to learn.

collaborative work needs to be done
I can go with that. But first I see an elephant in the room and its name is male violence. If that didn’t exist I don’t think I would have a problem with any of this.

Floisme

Thank you for your post but I will never ever be someone who puts the needs of one marginalized group before another. I believe that any community that has faced a history of persecution and violence, and do to this day, need equal prioritisation in terms of my support and the support of others.

I support transgender rights. I support women's rights. I support trans women's rights. The three are not mutually exclusive. Sometimes they cross over, and it is the right for all three to exist, so collaberative work needs to be done in order to ensure that nobody feels stigmatized, erased or harassed.

If your answer is "go and learn some better arguments", my challenge to you and any other gender critical anti trans activist feminist on here is to go and learn some better teaching methods for what you're trying to say. Because your current methods are clearly not working on many of us.

LGBTQIA and daimbars I've seen you both talking about being minority voices on these boards. And yet I would hazard a guess that most posters and lurkers rock up to FWR feeling great sympathy for trans issues and thinking 'Where's the harm?' I know I did. I was a Guardian carrying supporter of minorities. I'd even bought an Owen Jones book. So if people like me start off on your side and yet you feel the board is against you then it sounds like you're losing support along the way.

I can't speak for anyone else but I lurked on here for a long time before I posted and in that time I changed my views. What changed them was posters like Datun meeting provocation with calm logic, and with statistics and facts that I could go away and verify. I realised that the very best any gender believing posters (not you unless you've name changed) had to offer in return were 'Be nice,' 'Transphobe' and 'I know a transwoman and she's lovely.'

You want more support on here? Go and learn some better arguments.

@toriap2 This means that she's using a block list and you're on it.

Daim, it's not just twitter screencaps though, is it? It's entire tumblrs and blogs devoted to telling lesbians that they aren't actually lesbians for not doing dick and fantasing and planning corrective rape, youtube videos, crybullying of shops on social media to coerce them into changing their fitting room policies, safeguarding being dismantled in Girl Guides and schools, transwomen thumping lesbians for refusing sex, and targetted harassment and bomb threats with actual bomb-making equipment against women holding lawful meetings.

This is not transphobia. This is reasoned anxiety on the basis of observable evidence from online and real-life.

Just went to look at the twitter feed and I am blocked. I have never heard of or interacted with this person. I have no idea who she is.

@GenderCritter: recently a restaurant owner called out when he saw a big burly bloke go into the ladies loo - he said something along the lines of 'that's the ladies, get out.' Turns out the person was a transwoman and my friend gladly joined a mob crowd to absolutely hound the restaurant owner.

That first cheese layer in the Swiss Cheese Model where any bystander can challenge a male-bodied person entering the female toilets? That's under threat, right there.

The word to describe this non-binary snowflake is "crybully".

Lol you are funny Daimers 

You too Ereshers. Humour makes us human.

She is stirring up trouble left, right and centre

It's frequently a power trip.

Blimey, I've just read Glinner's twitter. Well done him.

I'm friends with lots of trans people and only know one activist. And they are pretty harmless, just post ridiculous memes sometimes.

Yes but most people here have said repeatedly it's not about individual trans people. I am absolutely sure there are many very nice trans people. Doesn't mean I'm going to budge from my position of wanting to retain sex-segregated spaces.

I know 2 trans people in real life. One is absolutely lovely - I don't know them very well (she is transitioning to male) The other is female but calls herself non-binary. She is stirring up trouble left, right and centre - recently a restaurant owner called out when he saw a big burly bloke go into the ladies loo - he said something along the lines of 'that's the ladies, get out.' Turns out the person was a transwoman and my friend gladly joined a mob crowd to absolutely hound the restaurant owner. His facebook had hundreds of 1* reviews and people were urged not to go there. She is about 25 and not behaving very well to be honest.

The people who are really dangerous are the ones who pressure schools, after they have made a decision to retain single six toilets. To reverse their decision. By dog whistling to 50 other trans-activists to pile on and discredit.

That's bloody dangerous. It's awful.

They are the ones who train the police. They are in the bloody police.

The ones who advise schools, the NHS and the NSPCC to disregard safeguarding protocols.

The ones who promote the elevation of one protected characteristic over all the others.

The ones who lurk online, telling youngsters to find a new family and isolate them from their parents.

Who go onto tumblr, encouraging children to take hormones and get surgery. Year 7s looking for breast binders.

This is not isolated. This is not unusual. This is endemic.

So yes, I will call out the ideology, I will show that it is misogynistic, and homophobic and actively, openly against child safeguarding protocols.

And absolutely, that relates to the mangling of language.

And deciding the a lesbian relationship is two men having anal sex.

Ffs.

think that bullying women to force them to repeat lies about the true nature of the class of people that oppress them is a hell of a lot worse than "petty and spiteful", daimbars.

Agree. Preferred pronouns are nonsense. If I'm going to use them it's a courtesy. Because I normally don't want to offend people, however misguided I might find them. That would go for religious people talking about their relationship with God. I would smile politely and nod. I'm humouring them, as Munroe Bergdorf so perceptively realises. As most people do. But if I feel it's injurious to women's rights, that's where it stops.

Anyone who minimises or dismisses the pressure lesbians are subject to on this subject is a rape apologist, LGBTQIA. There's no way around it.

YY. I would have thought people claiming to be excellent feminists would understand what rape apologism means.

Honestly I bet if Riley Dennis and Datun met in RL they would be perfectly polite and respectful to one another.

Lol you are funny Daimers

The condensed version of that is: the internet shapes our culture and what’s said online ON BOTH SIDES does matter, but spending too much time on Twitter and forgetting that most people involved (again on both sides!) are fairly harmless in real life has caused everyone to lose their heads.

It needs saying again, this isn't about individuals.

I think Riley J Dennis is a self entitled fool. Who could negatively influence young women. But I don't think he's an actual cunt.

This is about changing the law. It's not about yelling over the fence, you bloody bastards.

It's about safeguarding.

There is a teacher on another thread who said after she had been trained, by a trans lobby group, if she answered all the questions according to her training, she would be disregarding every single safeguarding protocol she had.

It's about dismantling women's boundaries, women's rights, and child safeguarding protocols.

This isn't a game. It's not a ner, ner, ner, ner, ner.

And, it's not about 'my trans mate who's perfectly delightful, I don't know what you're talking about'.

I agree using preferred pronouns is common decency and the refusal to do so looks petty and spiteful.

I think that bullying women to force them to repeat lies about the true nature of the class of people that oppress them is a hell of a lot worse than "petty and spiteful", daimbars.

made to feel I am a rape apologist

Anyone who minimises or dismisses the pressure lesbians are subject to on this subject is a rape apologist, LGBTQIA. There's no way around it.

I agree using preferred pronouns is common decency and the refusal to do so looks petty and spiteful.

The self ID challenge would probably get a lot more traction if the spitefulness and hate was taken away but unfortunately the respectful GC posters on here are outnumbered online by the peak trans brigade.

Yes to this! Honestly I bet if Riley Dennis and Datun met in RL they would be perfectly polite and respectful to one another. They might even make friends. Yet on the Internet they are pitched as each other's nemesis.

Yeah, whenever I see posters saying, for example, how they won’t use preferred pronouns on principle I just think “you cant have met many trans people IRL.” In real life, most normal people would just feel so breathtakingly rude referring to a trans woman as “he” to her face that they simply couldn’t do it.

I’m sure some on here would cry “female socialisation” at this observation, but it’s not, it’s just decency and the impulse the majority of people have to be broadly respectful of others in a face-to-face context.

spending too much time on Twitter and forgetting that most people involved (again on both sides!) are fairly harmless in real life has caused everyone to lose their heads.

Yes to this! Honestly I bet if Riley Dennis and Datun met in RL they would be perfectly polite and respectful to one another. They might even make friends. Yet on the Internet they are pitched as each other's nemesis.

Maybe ask yourself whether 'peak trans' - a term that announces your negativity towards all transgender people - is the position you really want to adopt. And then ask yourself why that is?

Interestingly that is their term, not mine.

Ask yourself just what you are doing for the trans community? Let alone the lesbians [who don't want penises and keep saying no].

I dont call people names. I'm not 6.

I get angry sometimes but it doesn't come from "hatred". Only frustration and it's never directed at posters personally.

Ha! Don't flatter yourself.

Off to teach kitty some more swear words though. And cook tea.

The condensed version of that is: the internet shapes our culture and what’s said online ON BOTH SIDES does matter, but spending too much time on Twitter and forgetting that most people involved (again on both sides!) are fairly harmless in real life has caused everyone to lose their heads.