Grace Petrie on London protests

LGBTQIA - what I'm saying is that your post omitted the real reason why your friend was assaulted, which was an act/acts of male violence. If we can remove the individual circumstance of your friend (and thus avoid your argument-derailing of 'whataboutery'.....without minimising what happened which is clearly awful), we can look at the structural and societal context of assaults by men.

It is not women's 'job' to keep the world 'safe' from male violence, but we should definitely hang on to the means we already have to protect ourselves. Permitting biological men (and presumably your friend looked like a biological man or the female toilets would not have been barred - nightclubs go on appearance after all ) into female spaces is to risk undermining our safety, comfort and dignity.

If a medical professional felt that the woman was uncomfortable, I'm sure they would say exactly the same.

Except they didn't. They argued the toss. And the woman was called a bigot. It was even put on her notes.

I'm so sorry that you have had a bad experience. But knowing that smear can be traumatic, I'm hoping desperately you will get this.

Do you think we are inventing these? We are not. I can assure you.

Men are routinely beating women in sport.

I'm sure your trans friends are perfectly lovely. I'm sure they're not interested in making women feel uncomfortable, beating them in sport, or calling them bigoted for refusing to be touched by them.

But there is a significant cohort who do not think that way.
Whether they are genuinely trans or not, I don't know. I doubt they have gender dysphoria, if that's the criteria.

Radical feminists have traditionally championed minorities and marginalised people. They are generally left wing, inclusive, hippy do-gooders.

Ask yourself why would great swathes of feminists have suddenly turned into raging bigots overnight?

They haven't. They are dealing with a direct attack. Your decent trans friends are far more collateral damage, they are the cause.

Datun

My misogyny is breathtaking? I addressed every point in your post to the best of my ability, politely and rationally, and you accuse me of being a misogynist because I didn't answer them in the way you wanted? Is that really how it works around here?

Talk to me on an equal level! Try to understand what I'm trying to say, and I will try to understand what others are trying to tell me. But if you close down my arguments by calling me a misogynist, I have nothing more to say to you.

She is no threat at all to other women, just like the vast majority of transwomen.

Firstly she poses exactly the same threat as any other man.

Secondly, my father-in-law is no threat, I don't want to disrobe in front of him. Nor do I expect other women to.

That wasn't the question. Is a woman a bigot for rejecting a trans medical professional because they are male? Or is that an outrageous attack on women's boundaries?

If the woman does not feel comfortable with the person that is conducting her smear test, for whatever reason, no, she is not a bigot for rejecting them. I don't believe I could have been any clearer in my answer.

I believe that people should be able to make personal decisions for themselves based on their own experiences and attitudes. The only exception I'd generally make for this is people rejecting professionals due to race, as this is never anything but ignorance.

If a medical professional felt that the woman was uncomfortable, I'm sure they would say exactly the same. I speak from personal experience here. Due to my PTSD I struggle tremendously with smear tests. The last time I went, a nurse who I found to be quite abrupt and uncaring in nature attempted the smear first. It didn't work, she could see I felt uncomfortable. She went to find my GP, someone who I know well and has always put me at ease, and she came into the room and was able to successfully complete the test. I don't know if the nurse took any offence, maybe she did, but she certainly didn't let it show.

LGBTQIA

Your misogyny is breathtaking. Either that or you're petrified.

You say collaboration is the key and we can resolve this.

I give you the conflict of rights, and you can't even address it.

You don't know enough about sport? I can't stand sport. It's irrelevant. Of course you can answer the question. You don't have to understand sport.

Rapists? Only if they are a threat? How does that work? Are you implying that a rapist is not a threat to women!? Or are you saying just put them in with the women and only when they prove they're a threat, should they be removed?? How many rapes would satisfy you?

A trusted medical professional?? Again, what the hell does this mean? You ask for a woman, you get a man.

Are women allowed to specify a female? This is not a difficult question, unless you're petrified of answering it. Or your answer is misogynistic.

You can't pretend that you are interested in a collaborative resolution, when you can't take even a baby step towards one by answering questions.

It's you who won't collaborate.

Because you have already decided that collaboration can't work because

I have seen so much spiteful misgendering on here, so many unkind comments about people's appearances, so many horror stories about a minority of sexual predators, which exist in pretty much ANY marginalised group, used to conflate with the transwomen group as a whole.

You've set out your wares, right there. So don't talk to me about bloody collaboration.

As was the post I was responding to. Women face unspeakable violence. So do the transgender community. We have to take responsibility for both.

Violence from men. MEN. Not from women and certainly not from radical feminists.

Farcical.

So her being a vulnerable transwoman in a male space had nothing to do with the attack?

I’m sure it did. Violent men respond to perceived transgression of gender norms with violence. We as feminists are fully aware of this.

Can you understand from this why many women do feel that single-sex spaces matter for their safety, and why dismissing and trivialising these concerns as bigotry is failing to address the very real fear we have about some men?

*concerns

I'm saying it's up to anyone who is fighting for equality.

Sometimes you need to focus the fight for equality in order that certain people's rights and concerned aren't overlooked. Trans people have their campaigns. Women need ours to be focussed on women's issues.

A woman should have the right to choose a trusted medical professional for her smear test.

That wasn't the question. Is a woman a bigot for rejecting a trans medical professional because they are male? Or is that an outrageous attack on women's boundaries?

Society and in particular men have to take responsibility for male violence against male people. Feminism is centred on the liberation of women from sex based oppression. It's not all up to women.

That's an easy way to wash your hands of it, but you'll never resolve this if you do not address the needs and rights of the transgender community. I'm not saying it's all up to women. I'm saying it's up to anyone who is fighting for equality.

LGBTQAI- the problem is that for most people most of the time, self identification won't be a problem. Most people just get on with quietly living their lives, and of course trans people should have the same rights and freedoms as everyone else. It's when you get the edges that the issues arise-as with most things. Sport is a very useful proxy for a lot of these issues. Let's use my ds as an example. He is a good all round sportsman at school. Not the best in the school, but knocking at the door. His times are always better than the best girl. If he identified as a girl, he would easily take most school records. Do you think this would be right?

She is no threat at all to other women, just like the vast majority of transwomen.

How is a woman supposed to know that? Male people are a threat to women, in general.

As was the post I was responding to. Women face unspeakable violence. So do the transgender community. We have to take responsibility for both.

Society and in particular men have to take responsibility for male violence against male people. Feminism is centred on the liberation of women from sex based oppression. It's not all up to women.

No, LGBTQIA. Your friend was attacked because a man/some men committed a violent crime and I hope were charged and prosecuted for it.

So her being a vulnerable transwoman in a male space had nothing to do with the attack? Do you really believe that?

We talk about women needing spaces to be safe, and they do. That nightclub had no 'third option' - if it did, she'd have used it. She is no threat at all to other women, just like the vast majority of transwomen.

I don't doubt this at all. Because the marketing machine, including people like you, are framing lesbianism as anti-trans.

People like me are 'marketing' it as anti trans because it is anti trans. I have seen so much spiteful misgendering on here, so many unkind comments about people's appearances, so many horror stories about a minority of sexual predators, which exist in pretty much ANY marginalised group, used to conflate with the transwomen group as a whole.

Should men be allowed to compete as women, against women?
I don't feel qualified to answer this as I do not know enough about competitive sports.

Should rapists be allowed in the female estate?
Rapists should not be allowed anywhere that they are a threat to other people.

Should a woman have the right to choose a female HCP for her smear test?
A woman should have the right to choose a trusted medical professional for her smear test.

This is an emotional appeal.

As was the post I was responding to. Women face unspeakable violence. So do the transgender community. We have to take responsibility for both.

No, LGBTQIA. Your friend was attacked because a man/some men committed a violent crime and I hope were charged and prosecuted for it.

Haven't read full thread but just wanted to say in response to Grace Petrie - I am a POC, I've never experienced rascist bullying or discrimination because of my race, I've never been badly treated by the police. Unlike Grace, I would never stand there and say that I 'don't buy it' when others have experienced these things and tell them they have nothing to complain about, no right to protest or campaign for better treatment. What an utterly ignorant person she is.

But on the topic itself, as things progress I really see the only way forward is to properly seperate sex and gender - same sex attracted and same gender attracted as two separate things, same sex services and same gender services as different again. I don't experience a gender identity or consider the socially constructed concept of gender as important but I respect that others do and have a right to their freedom to define themselves. The line is drawn when that right starts impinging on other people's freedoms and rights, and there does need to be some gate keeping.

Seperating sex and gender legally and socially is surely the only way to go.

Because your current methods are clearly not working on many of us.

I disagree. The huge increase in visits to this board shows that methods are working.
I'm just one of the many who lurked and then learned about what's really happening in terms of the erasure of women's rights, thanks to the evidence based arguments crafted on here.

I'm not sure, perhaps I'll ask my friend who was brutally beaten and sexually assaulted in a nightclub toilet because she was told she couldn't use the female cubicles?

This is an emotional appeal.

Men commit 90% of violent crime. It's a gendered crime.

You know this. You do.

On the contrary, I know many people who had no idea previously that this was happening, now absolutely outraged on behalf of the trans community after the Pride protest.

I don't doubt this at all. Because the marketing machine, including people like you, are framing lesbianism as anti-trans.

Believe me, the people you speak of? If they knew what you really meant, they would disagree with you.

The rights of transwomen and women conflict. They can't not conflict.

Sex segregation under certain circumstances is necessary. Because otherwise women and children are just a free for all for any predator.

You tell me how to resolve this, if you believe collaboration is the key.

Should men be allowed to compete as women, against women?
Should rapists be allowed in the female estate?
Should a woman have the right to choose a female HCP for her smear test?

In all those examples, the rights of transwomen and women are in direct conflict.

Resolve it.

Is it more important that a trans person doesn't feel stigmatized or that my friends are kept safe?

I'm not sure, perhaps I'll ask my friend who was brutally beaten and sexually assaulted in a nightclub toilet because she was told she couldn't use the female cubicles?

Actually that’s not quite correct - I would still have a big problem with women’s sport. But male violence is the dealbreaker for me. As long as it exists, I cannot see any way of persuading me that male bodied people should have access to women’s spaces. I am sorry for individual transwomen who are caught up in this but there it is.

I won’t be able to answer any replies today as I have a bastard of a day at work and then I’m watching the football. But I can read and pick up tomorrow if need be.

And it’s a one way street. People aren’t starting off GC and becoming transactivists.

On the contrary, I know many people who had no idea previously that this was happening, now absolutely outraged on behalf of the trans community after the Pride protest.

Sometimes they cross over, and it is the right for all three to exist, so collaberative work needs to be done in order to ensure that nobody feels stigmatized, erased or harassed.

I'd really like to know what 'collaborative work' can be done to help a rape victim with cPTSD be ok with a penis being in a supposedly safe female space.

I'll ask my friend Amy, shall I? She was raped by her father on a daily basis from the age of 5. At 12 he began chaining her up in a garden shed twice a week and selling her to his friends.

Or perhaps my friend Sophie who had similar experiences and who now can't even sleep in a bedroom as it's so triggering, (at the age of 27 she sleeps in her living room) and who avoids men in all spheres of her life in order to stay safe.

Is it more important that a trans person doesn't feel stigmatized or that my friends are kept safe?