Grace Petrie on London protests

LGBTQIA

That's why it frustrates me so much to see fellow feminists focusing on the trans community to the extent that this forum does.

In the interests of moving on, is there any part of you that is beginning to understand a little more as to why, by any chance?

‘My aim as a feminist is to challenge the patriarchy’

I just spat my cornflakes out over my keyboard.

May I say that you’re actually doing a good job of UPHOLDING the patriarchy, LBTQ?

Though as I mentioned, it’s not working. Women are waking up.

I am glad she has never had the experience that many lesbians (and especially young lesbians) have had. I am sorry she has been harassed by GC feminists. However it reads as if, if she hasn't had the experience, it doesn't happen. Kind of like a 'friend' of mine who luckily managed to figh off her attacker, and now claims that the only people who get raped are those who do not fight hard enough as its easy to avoid

Oh agreed, this board is heavily focused on trans issues at the moment. I suspect the reasons for that are largely a) that the issue itself is bringing a lot of women to feminism, and b) this is one of the few online spaces where such debate is allowed. I’m a member of several online discussion spaces for left-leaning politics; I can discuss vaguer issues of sexism (like “cat-calling is bad!”) on any of them, but this is the only place I could have a discussion about gender identity ideology and legislative changes.

Yes. They were thinking of how women would feel, of women's rights to privacy and dignity. It's neither their fault nor women's fault that your male friend was assaulted in the male toilet. Should all gay men use the women's toilets too?

Of course they were. I understand that, just as my friend did. And she said the bartender was very sweet and clearly embarrassed that she'd even asked.

Gay men should use men's toilets as they identify as men. But in general, more needs to be done to make nightclub toilets a safer environment for all.

You don't appear to understand why this focus exists.

Also LGBTQIA, especially given you know someone who’s directly experienced male violence for being trans, does it not seem a bit weird to you that current debate on this subject is setting up radical feminists as the bad guys? Not violent men, but radical feminists? Does that not seem a bit weird to you?

Oh, absolutely. My primary aim as a feminist is to challenge the patriarchy and dismantle the rights of violent men. That's why it frustrates me so much to see fellow feminists focusing on the trans community to the extent that this forum does. I appreciate there are some other topics of discussion on here, but a disproportionate amount are focused on transwomen, and that concerns me.

She went into the male toilets because a bartender told her, when she discreetly asked him what the policy is, that it would be better.

Yes. They were thinking of how women would feel, of women's rights to privacy and dignity. It's neither their fault nor women's fault that your male friend was assaulted in the male toilet. Should all gay men use the women's toilets too?

Sorry to hear your friend was attacked LGBQ+. By a bloke presumably.

Women being attacked/raped/beaten has gone on for so long and, indeed, men's rights to beat and rape women have been enshrined in law for so long, and until so recently and still are in many places. It's so universal it's sort of invisible. Perhaps young people don't realise how recent, partial and fragile our rights are? They see that we have a female prime minister and think all is well?

It's easier to sympathise with a small number of troubled people (trans people) than a large number of people (women) for some reason. It seems to be human nature. We'll do anything to get a football team out of a cave using money that could have saved 10000 people from death elsewhere. For some reason it's how we are wired.

All I can do is say 'the attack was wrong' and add that generally speaking, transwomen who don't 'pass' risk making women feel unsafe and uncomfortable when they're in women-only spaces. So they shouldn't be there.

This.

Did your friend go into the men's because they were "adopting non binary traits"? I am sorry to hear that your friend was assaulted by other males. But it's not the role of women to welcome all GNC males into our spaces because they get abused by other males. As Datun says if your friend passed they would be able to use the ladies without anyone realising. Clearly they didn't.

She went into the male toilets because a bartender told her, when she discreetly asked him what the policy is, that it would be better.

She isn't gender non conforming. She is a woman who occasionally adopts gender non conforming aesthetics. Just as some biological women proudly dispaly facial hair, or use make up to achieve the look, so does my friend embrace those sorts of aesthetics on occasion.

You misread my post, then. I said that a rapist should not be allowed anywhere that they are a threat. If they are a threat in a female prison, they should not be there.

I read your post to say that a risk assessment should be done on whether they pose a threat to the women in the prison.

Which is currently what happens if they have a GRC. Hence Martin Ponting being put in a women's prison and swiftly removed again.

Which is why self ID matters in terms of prisons. It's crucial.

Anyone with a GRC gets automatic transfer. Unless they have committed the most top-level violent crime, in which case there isn't a facility in the female prison for those crimes, because women don't tend to commit them.

Prioritising the feelings of a rapist, a rapist, above the feelings and safety of women is just about as misogynistic as it comes.

If that wasn't your intention, then I understand.

It is, however, the intention of transactivists who want to change the law.

You disagreeing with that, makes you transphobic.

Frankly, LGBTQIA, the instances where women's protections can be eroded, are not that many. But they are vital.

There are not that many places that are separated by sex. Prisons, rape refugees, hospital wards, overnight accommodations are the crucial ones. With changing rooms and loos further down the list.

The problem is you have a number of men who are leveraging current protocols to not only taunt and goad women, but pressuring shops, institutions, schools and services to change their policies.

Women's choices are being removed.

One of the ways to try and halt that is to expose the motives of the people doing it.

One woman who was on a BBC panel says how she went to the loo, to be followed in by one of the trans-activists who was also on the panel. The TRA had to pass one gents and one gender neutral loo, and walk up two flights of stairs to get to the ladies.

He absolutely knew he was making her feel uncomfortable. They had just been talking about it live on television!

It's deliberate.

Women make distinctions, relentlessly on here, about men with gender dysphoria trying to navigate their life under the radar, and transactivists trying to actively damage women.

I wish people would just bear that in mind.

LGBTQI.....I think describing the details of your friend's individual experience is to derail this aspect of the discussion. All I can do is say 'the attack was wrong' and add that generally speaking, transwomen who don't 'pass' risk making women feel unsafe and uncomfortable when they're in women-only spaces. So they shouldn't be there.

I cannot believe anyone sensible thinks rapists who identify as women should go to a women's prison 'unless they are a threat'. They are a threat because of their history. Sexual offenders are major recidivists. So of course they should never go to a women's prison.

You didn't answer them, though. You evaded them.

In exactly the same way Stella Creasy answered the mother whose 11-year-old daughter had been forced to watch male masturbation in her school changing room while she was naked - peer on peer assault.

It's anti-feminist obscurantism.

I've literally told you (with her permission, I hasten to add) that she was beaten and sexually assaulted, and this is what you choose to focus on?

Sorry, I didn't read it properly, I reacted to that statement. That non binary people seem to pick and choose which spaces they use.

Also LGBTQIA, especially given you know someone who’s directly experienced male violence for being trans, does it not seem a bit weird to you that current debate on this subject is setting up radical feminists as the bad guys? Not violent men, but radical feminists? Does that not seem a bit weird to you?

I admire people who can so easily brush their needs to one side, but the reality is that transwomen are also disproportionately abused by patriarchy.

Trans 'women' using facilities built, funded, run and for women IS patriarchy. Trans 'women' butting into feminism IS patriarchy. Trans 'women' telling women how to woman and that they do it better than women IS patriarchy.

If Trans 'women' were not so male in their behaviour, and they identified with us rather than as us, they would have our support.

Most gender critical women were once allies and willing to fight alongside trans people, but in one way or other were disgusted at the treatment of women by TRAs and that is why they are saying No.

Did your friend go into the men's because they were "adopting non binary traits"? I am sorry to hear that your friend was assaulted by other males. But it's not the role of women to welcome all GNC males into our spaces because they get abused by other males. As Datun says if your friend passed they would be able to use the ladies without anyone realising. Clearly they didn't.

"I totally understand the need for women to feel safe. I have never, ever disputed this. My friend advocates for a third space because she does not want to make other women feel uncomfortable. This is the reality of the majority of transgender women. They want to live a life that is easy, that does not hurt other women, that is not constantly focused on their identity, but when they do express it, they don't want to be beaten and raped."

I get that the intentions are honourable but we have to find a way of accommodating trans women's needs without dismantling women's rights.

Agree about the pressure cooker of twitter.

Oh how daring. Meanwhile who gives a fuck about women's privacy and dignity.

I've literally told you (with her permission, I hasten to add) that she was beaten and sexually assaulted, and this is what you choose to focus on?

I admire people who can so easily brush their needs to one side, but the reality is that transwomen are also disproportionately abused by patriarchy.

You’re setting up a false dichotomy. We know that trans people get abuse from men and from patriarchal systems designed to enforce gender as the hierarchy it is. But we’re getting told that it is wrong to even debate how to balance their needs with the needs of biological women.

It’s the difference between “trans people facing domestic violence need refuges” (absolutely! They do! Will happily support trans people fighting to set up refuge spaces!) and “trans women need access to women’s refuges and if you oppose this you’re a bigot.”

My friend looks biologically female but adopts non binary traits sometimes.

Oh how daring. Meanwhile who gives a fuck about women's privacy and dignity.

One of your takes - that a rapist should be allowed to go to a female prison unless they are a threat, IS breathtaking.

You misread my post, then. I said that a rapist should not be allowed anywhere that they are a threat. If they are a threat in a female prison, they should not be there.

It is not women's 'job' to keep the world 'safe' from male violence, but we should definitely hang on to the means we already have to protect ourselves. Permitting biological men (and presumably your friend looked like a biological man or the female toilets would not have been barred - nightclubs go on appearance after all ) into female spaces is to risk undermining our safety, comfort and dignity.

My friend looks biologically female but adopts non binary traits sometimes. That night she was rocking facial hair (as a Puerto Rican, it grows pretty quickly and it depends on her mood as to whether she shaves it off) but to all other intents and purposes she looked female. She is very tiny in stature. She has a deep voice (not really something that would be an issue if nipping into the loo quickly and not talking to anyone in there, but the men who assaulted her had heard her talking earlier in the night.) She is very, very pretty. Not that it should make any difference, but I can't imagine any woman looking at her and feeling threatened, even when she's got a five o'clock shadow.

I totally understand the need for women to feel safe. I have never, ever disputed this. My friend advocates for a third space because she does not want to make other women feel uncomfortable. This is the reality of the majority of transgender women. They want to live a life that is easy, that does not hurt other women, that is not constantly focused on their identity, but when they do express it, they don't want to be beaten and raped.

I admire people who can so easily brush their needs to one side, but the reality is that transwomen are also disproportionately abused by patriarchy.

LGBTQIA

You didn't answer them, though. You evaded them.

If your answers are fair, then answer.

Frankly, it doesn't interest me particularly. So I don't mind if you can't answer. But you have said several times why can't we collaborate?

The starting point would be for you to understand the issue, and put forward your take on it.

One of your takes - that a rapist should be allowed to go to a female prison unless they are a threat, IS breathtaking.

If you were incarcerated and couldn't escape, and you knew a rapist was being imprisoned with you, how would you feel?

60% of female prisoners have been subjected to past sexual abuse, by the way.

Imagining that a rapist, of any description, has any place in a female prison is misogyny.