Grace Petrie on London protests

Nailed it again datun totally nailed it

if the transgender community's claims that they do care about all women's rights (and not just transwomen's rights) is true, then there needs to be actual collaboration and action, working together to hear out all sides

And how do you propose that happens when even one woman declining to accept being 'CIS' is bullied, harassed, threatened and basically forced into retracting the statement and off of social media?

Top tip - it isn't the feminists doing the harrasing, bullying, threatening or forcing people off of anywhere. They are the ones talking and discussing and trying to be open if they weren't being shut down, bullied, intimidated and basically forced to do things in secret.

I feel it every day as a woman and a survivor, but I don't believe the echo forum you've molded here will do any long term good, because you are not focusing on the patriarchy, you are focusing on a marginalized group who also suffer under the hands of the patriarchy.

Because my friend is a woman. She is not a man. I guess you will disagree with me on that, but for me it's non-negotiable. She doesn't "invade" spaces;

Ok, so here is your conflict.

You are viewing transwomen as just as disadvantaged as women. And in very much the same way.

Firstly, they are born male. So the fact that they are even born is indicative of male privilege. You really need to do some reading around male privilege to see how it works. It wouldn't matter how they identified, they would have been encased in it.

It plays an enormous part here.

Feminism is not about equality. It's basically about increasing the financial and political representation of women. In order for them to stop being disadvantaged.

The crux of this is why are they disadvantaged? From birth?

They are socialised completely differently. Although this phenomenon is well documented, the BBC programme No More Boys and Girls focused on it recently.

At the age of seven, the girls interviewed said the only thing they can do better than boys is 'look pretty'. And the only emotion the boys could express was anger. Age seven.

The adults, teachers, parents and caregivers were totally shocked to look back at a film of themselves socialising the children differently, before their very eyes. When they were utterly convinced they treated them the same.

It wouldn't have mattered how these boys and girls identified. It's how they were treated that counted.

So when a transwoman decides that they should have equal place on, for instance, an all women shortlist, they are disregarding the reasons for the shortlist in the first place.

They are not only taking the place of, and displacing, a woman, they are able to do so because they are male, and they are blindly ignoring the disadvantage to women, because it doesn't apply to them. And they are reducing women's political representation. It doesn't get more entitled than that. It's patriarchy in action. Unless you think that a man is best placed to represent a woman? It's not called patriarchy for nothing.

I see that the main area of crossover for a lot of people is the way that transwomen are abused.

I do believe that this is leveraged, relentlessly.

It is a statistical fact that a man who transitions will be at less risk of murder than one who hasn't.

In this country, it is also a statistical fact that there are more transwomen murderers than victims.

Nonetheless, I am sure transwomen come in for abuse. But it is from men. And it's homophobia.

Men are very uncomfortable around gender nonconforming men. They don't beat them because they think they are women.

Male violence is a crushing problem. Globally.

But the answer is not to dismantle the boundaries that women have fought for in order to partake in public life and enjoy political representation.

It's immaterial whether you believe transwomen are really women. They offend at the same rate as men and have benefitted from male privilege.

But more importantly, it's not verifiable in any way. Any man can claim they are a woman. And many men do.

Transwomen need to campaign for a third space.

There is not a single argument, other than male dominance, that can question that solution.

There does seem to be a lot of focus on trans issues on here. However thats because transactivism is an imminent threat to womens rights. possibly the largest there has ever been. MRAs really have hit the jackpot with this one.

YY. I doubt LGBTQIAs trans friends are late transitioning cross dressers so she is not seeing the issues here.

There is a debate here between two different philosophies of what a woman is. This has impacts far beyond those that fall on a particular marginalised group. Changing the definition of ‘woman’ from ‘adult human female’ to ‘anyone who cares to use the word ‘woman’ to describe themselves’ has an impact on (biological) women. It removes our rights to organise and campaign as a sex class; it obscures statistics on discrimination and abuse, and waters down the measures used to combat those things; it reinforces the idea that all women have some innate psychological “female-ness”; it contributes towards the current hyper-gendered environment of childhood (“girls wear pink and like dresses”). It removes sex-segregated spaces (because why would we need them if ‘gender’ overrides sex?), limiting women’s safety, comfort and ability to succeed in things like competitive sports relying on physical strength. And in some circumstances it absolutely leaves the door open for predators; do you really think that no male prisoner would pretend to be trans to transfer to the female prison estate?

I think this is a very fair post. And of all the people who I've engaged with more than once on here, you've been the only one who has really tried to talk to me in a way that doesn't dismiss my fears about my transgender brothers and sisters. So thank you for that.

I understand these concerns. I believe that transwomen should only be able to legally identify as a woman - and therefore be able to access female spaces - after a certain number of years of living as a woman and after a robust psychological test to show they are truly female in identification. I do not believe that gender is biological only; that doesn't mean I believe in gender stereotypes, but I do believe gender is more than our anatomy, and I know I'm not alone in that.

I also believe that if protesters such as "Get the L out* and similar want to make any genuine progress, not at the expense of the transgender community, and if the transgender community's claims that they do care about all women's rights (and not just transwomen's rights) is true, then there needs to be actual collaboration and action, working together to hear out all sides.

But I choose to listen to my friends in the transgender community, and I know they are not the enemy of women or women's rights, as a whole.

This is a really crucial point for me.

I fully accept your trans friends are decent people who are just trying to live their lives. It must seem appalling to you that people on here could do something as cruel as misgender them or lump them in with predatory men given you care about them.

Like many women here I used to be in that same position. I saw the film Transamerica with Felicity Huffman and came out of it feeling such empathy for trans people. I imagine I'd gladly have said tw are women. What's the problem with being inclusive afterall? It costs nothing, right?

Being here has changed me. I can't tell you how shocked I was when I first read 'transwomen' are men. It seemed so bigoted. It's easy to forget how profoundly shocking that is if you're new to the gc position.

And I still think many trans people are decent people who just want to live peacefully. My gc position has very little to do with any individual trans person.

What's changed is I am concerned now with women's rights. In changing society to say any male can be female, women are being harmed We have so many examples of that. In sport, in schools, in refuges, in shopping centres and prisons and online. It is profoundly serious. It will only get worse. There are so many examples of the harm done all over these boards.

By all means be trans and be happy. The world is more interesting for being diverse. The minute I have a problem is when your actions start hurting women, however. It's ok to have boundaries and for women to say, in order to be safe in society we need to sometimes shut the door on men. Trans women are men. That isn't personal. It isn't an attack. It is biological reality. Men as a class are violent towards women. That won't change any time soon. We need 3rd spaces for trans people if they don't wish to be in male spaces.

Women don't have to budge up and open their doors and put themselves in harms way to make trans people safer.

That's why it frustrates me so much to see fellow feminists focusing on the trans community to the extent that this forum does.

There does seem to be a lot of focus on trans issues on here. However thats because transactivism is an imminent threat to womens rights. possibly the largest there has ever been. MRAs really have hit the jackpot with this one.

Another angle:

Patriarchy is a system under which women as a class are oppressed. Gender is the mechanism by which this oppression is done.

I don’t care myself if some people feel a strong affinity and comfort with the idea of gender. We all need to make our peace with the system we live in. But codifying gender as a real innate thing, something more real than biological sex, and demanding that everybody else does so as well - that’s hardly tackling patriarchy.

because you are not focusing on the patriarchy, you are focusing on a marginalized group who also suffer under the hands of the patriarchy.

Look, I appreciate that this is too big an issue to fit into one post, but here’s why radical feminists have an issue with that framing.

There is a debate here between two different philosophies of what a woman is. This has impacts far beyond those that fall on a particular marginalised group. Changing the definition of ‘woman’ from ‘adult human female’ to ‘anyone who cares to use the word ‘woman’ to describe themselves’ has an impact on (biological) women. It removes our rights to organise and campaign as a sex class; it obscures statistics on discrimination and abuse, and waters down the measures used to combat those things; it reinforces the idea that all women have some innate psychological “female-ness”; it contributes towards the current hyper-gendered environment of childhood (“girls wear pink and like dresses”). It removes sex-segregated spaces (because why would we need them if ‘gender’ overrides sex?), limiting women’s safety, comfort and ability to succeed in things like competitive sports relying on physical strength. And in some circumstances it absolutely leaves the door open for predators; do you really think that no male prisoner would pretend to be trans to transfer to the female prison estate?

This isn’t about picking on trans people. This is about wanting to make sure that measures to advance their rights don’t reduce those of biological women.

the very male threats of violence towards disobedient women, including sexual violence, by transactivists

Here it is, in case you're unsure

Are you trying to deny that some women can be misogynistic? I'm not trying to 'bury' anything - one sentence in my entire post does not constitute burial.

Try engaging with the point being made rather than deflecting.

But LGBtqia what is it u wan5 women to do ?

guess you will disagree with me on that, but for me it's non-negotiable

Me too. So there we are. Your friend is male. I don't want any males in intimate female spaces, or taking over feminism with their different issues and silencing discussion of women's. We can't pick and choose which males we have in female spaces. Many aren't as nice, or as vulnerable, as your friend.

Oh and here's something you can do. Tell your male allies who join in yo bully and dismiss and abuse women to back off this issue, they are not helping anyone.

I don't have many male allies, but if anyone I knew was abusing and dismissing women, I would absolutely tell them to back off.

Don't try to bury the very male threats of violence towards disobedient women, including sexual violence, by transactivists in "women do it too". You're sounding like an MRA.

Are you trying to deny that some women can be misogynistic? I'm not trying to 'bury' anything - one sentence in my entire post does not constitute burial.

Oh and here's something you can do. Tell your male allies who join in yo bully and dismiss and abuse women to back off this issue, they are not helping anyone.

Why have you ducked this? Why is how someone "identifies" relevant to women when it comes to male people invading their spaces? If gay men are safer in women's toilets shouldn't they be allowed to use them too?

Because my friend is a woman. She is not a man. I guess you will disagree with me on that, but for me it's non-negotiable. She doesn't "invade" spaces; if she uses a female space it's because she's been given permission to do so. I can't imagine how horrible it must be for her to have to do that whenever she goes to a new place. Something I take for granted every day.

And there's the problem; activists don't criticize violence and they don't empathise with women.

Absolutely. Just as women can be misogynistic towards one another, so can transwomen.

Don't try to bury the very male threats of violence towards disobedient women, including sexual violence, by transactivists in "women do it too". You're sounding like an MRA.

Then why the disconnect? It's not all about "fear". It's about women's privacy and dignity. Women's right to consent to males in their intimate spaces. Freedom from the male gaze.

There's no disconnect. If anything it's the opposite; it's impossible for me to disconnect from the rights of women and the rights of the transgender community. Hence why I'm here. Having spent a few days here, I'm no more sure on either side what needs to be done. It's a very unpleasant and disconcerting feeling for me to feel so conflicted.

And I get that it's not all about fear. I'm speaking as someone with PTSD. For me, pretty much everything I do is underpinned with fear.

Gay men should use men's toilets as they identify as men.

Why have you ducked this? Why is how someone "identifies" relevant to women when it comes to male people invading their spaces? If gay men are safer in women's toilets shouldn't they be allowed to use them too?

LGBTQIA I am appalled by any act of violence and your friend didn't deserve that.

Because your friend was assaulted I would gladly help them campaign for a 3rd space so they are safe. I will always generally speak out against male violence and call for society to address it, too.

But you really want my traumatised female friend to budge up and make room for them although it will traumatise and terrify her further? You can't see any issue with that? My friend was assaulted as a child, by a grown man simply because of her sex. Your friend was (I presume) a male who was attacked by another man. We can't allow any male to access female spaces because other males are violent. Where do the vulnerable women then go? Why should they swallow their significant fear and discomfort to make your friend feel better?

No, not really. I genuinely can see why women are concerned about their spaces being violated.

Then why the disconnect? It's not all about "fear". It's about women's privacy and dignity. Women's right to consent to males in their intimate spaces. Freedom from the male gaze.

In the interests of moving on, is there any part of you that is beginning to understand a little more as to why, by any chance?

No, not really. I genuinely can see why women are concerned about their spaces being violated. I get that, and I understand the power of fear, because I feel that too. I feel it every day.

But I choose to listen to my friends in the transgender community, and I know they are not the enemy of women or women's rights, as a whole. Can people within their community be misogynistic and predatory? Absolutely. Just as women can be misogynistic towards one another, so can transwomen.

I can understand your fear and concern, because I feel it every day as a woman and a survivor, but I don't believe the echo forum you've molded here will do any long term good, because you are not focusing on the patriarchy, you are focusing on a marginalized group who also suffer under the hands of the patriarchy.

"Oh, absolutely. My primary aim as a feminist is to challenge the patriarchy and dismantle the rights of violent men. That's why it frustrates me so much to see fellow feminists focusing on the trans community to the extent that this forum does. I appreciate there are some other topics of discussion on here, but a disproportionate amount are focused on transwomen, and that concerns me."

And it frustrates me to see the trans community and its hanger-on focussing on women.