Grace Petrie on London protests

Going back to sports; the thing that really gets me is that section 19 of the GRA pretty comprehensively says that transsexuals do not get treated as their preferred gender.

But clearly that’s not enforced. It really doesn’t matter if the laws are there but institutions decide TWAW and fuck women over

Yes. 2 categories should be recorded: sex (male, female, intersex) and gender (whatever - what was the latest count?).

In practical terms I think recording accurate crime stats is now quite hard to do, especially if someone’s official documents all state they are the opposite sex to the one they were born. Okay, in the recent rape cases by women the perpetrators’ birth sex is obvious because they used their penises; but in other types of violent crime things won’t always be so clear.

Your comment is a good example of why the GRA is harmful and no longer fit for purpose as it is being abused. Complete seperation of sex and gender issues/requirements/laws is needed.

The give and take is easy and will come from completely separating ‘sex’ and ‘gender’ in legal terms.

I agree that there has to be give and take. The problem is that in order for there to be give and take there has to be discussion. And while #nodebate is a thing.......

In practical terms I think recording accurate crime stats is now quite hard to do, especially if someone’s official documents all state they are the opposite sex to the one they were born. Okay, in the recent rape cases by women the perpetrators’ birth sex is obvious because they used their penises; but in other types of violent crime things won’t always be so clear.

I’ve finally coe to the viewpoint, the realisation- from a good few years journey from complete trans supporter that if you compromise you will always end up back at TWAW, give an inch and they will demand the whole female experience. It’s inevitable.

I get that, but I also think: trans people are here and they’re not going anywhere. There HAS to be some give and take in the end, because this simply isn’t a situation where one side can possibly “win” in the end.

" And keeping separate crime statistics, otherwise the next generation won't even be able to name the problem"
This is so crucial. And whenever we try and talk about this, the conversation gets steered back to loos.

the rest.
I need coffee.

Sorry - random 'the word' in that first line. If you mentally delete it, the ret should make sense.

Hmm last time I was on here the word LGBTQIA was talking about 'collaboration'. I can see that went well. I have nothing say that hasn't already been said far more eloquently and you seem to have left the thread anyway. But I said I would come back to you so here I am.

I can see that you're personally invested in this because your friend was beaten up and I can understand that you want to protect her. But this bit really pissed me off:

That's an easy way to wash your hands of it, but you'll never resolve this if you do not address the needs and rights of the transgender community.
Admittedly you do go on to say I'm not saying it's all up to women. I'm saying it's up to anyone who is fighting for equality.

Your friend was a victim of male violence. It's not that women don't want to resolve it - it's that we can't. It can only be fixed if males - as a group - take responsibility and do something about it. In the meantime, we try to keep ourselves safe and that means insisting on a small number of spaces were male born people are excluded. And keeping separate crime statistics, otherwise the next generation won't even be able to name the problem.

I am sorry you friend is caught up in that and would support any campaign for a third space - like many posters on here.

And now I'm out all day again - so back to sport.

The competitive sports issue might be the only one where I believe no compromise is possible.

I’ve finally coe to the viewpoint, the realisation- from a good few years journey from complete trans supporter that if you compromise you will always end up back at TWAW, give an inch and they will demand the whole female experience. It’s inevitable.

And people who say "Oh, sport's not important-it doesn't affect me" remember it's not just elite sport we're talking about- we're potentially talking about school sport. In America sport scholarships to college have already been awarded to transwomen.

The competitive sports issue might be the only one where I believe no compromise is possible.

The thing about the women’s sports point is that it only gives pause for thought if you ALREADY know just how vast the gulf is between male and female athletes in almost all sports. Most people think men are on average a bit stronger, but they don’t realise, for example, that some of the world’s top women athletes have had their records broken by non-professional teenage boys. It’s also hard to get this across without it seeming like you’re diminishing the incredible achievements of women in sports.

I think general ignorance about the level of strength difference between men and women is also partly why the unique significance of male on female domestic violence is lost on so many, and the “hey, don’t women do this too?” line so often gets trotted out - sometimes in bad faith, but not always.

Bertrand, I agree about the competitive sports question. I don't think you have to know much about sports to understand that as you say, it is not only an issue of itself, it symbolises and reflects much of the debate.

• people born men in women's spaces - check
• people born men using superior strength to advantage over women - check
• women unable to protest, just have to suck it up - check
• campaigns (successful) to protect the new state of affairs with legislation - check

Prob other points of similarity.

You may well be right, Bert.

Perhaps they don't realise that I'm not really talking to them.

LeiaTheSlaya

Thanks !

Obviously I don't expect people to be on Mumsnet all day-but there does seem to be a bit of a pattern- posters challenge the gender critical
position, are asked questions, they
answer the questions in very broad, often circular terms, they are asked to clarify then they vanish. I've seen this happen a lot.

Datun, I don't think it's said enough (even though it's said plenty!) but your clear, straightforward, rationale on these threads is invaluable and I am forever thankful for your input & unwavering determination to keep on keeping on with it. Thank you so so much.

Transactivism is a large threat to womens rights, and women need to fight back against it. This does not mean said women hate all trans people or anything, it simply means women recognise the male pattern abuse that's rampant in transactivism. And women, especially feminists, have a lot of experience in this behavior. So the time comes where we stop trying to be 'nice' and have to think of ourselves.

Wanted to repost this in bold, Personwithavulva.; While I'm sure there's lots of lovely MtFs* living quiet lives, many/most TRAs in the public eye communicate in a way that's exactly the same as other abusive males.

• We always refer to MtFs leading quiet lives away from social media, and exonerate them from the evils of extreme transactivism. But these quiet people need to react to the fact that TRAs are claiming to represent them, and if they disagree then they're going to have to speak up.

Because there will be a backlash eventually, and no one wants inoffensive transsexuals caught up in the cross fire.

LGBTQIA- if you have a moment, could you address my point about sport please? I genuinely feel that it sums up the concerns about SI, but in the least emotionally charged way possible -an excellent proxy for the debate in my view

There must be thousands and thousands of men with gender dysphoria, who wouldn't dream of saying they represent women.

Yes. I wish we would hear more from them. I do understand why not though. But to see that reason being glossed over is exasperating in the extreme.

PersonWithAVulva

Exactly.

There must be thousands and thousands of men with gender dysphoria, who wouldn't dream of saying they represent women.

Presenting as a woman alleviates the symptoms of gender dysphoria. It's not complicated. Everyone gets it.

That's completely different to claiming you are actually just a different kind of woman, and therefore represent them.

LGBTQIA

If you want an example of what I'm talking about, take a look at Lily Madigan and Heather Peto.

Both of them occupying a place that is reserved for women.

Both of them displaying behaviour that would never, ever be countenanced in a woman.

Male privilege.

Take a look at the transwomen who are being elected politically in the US.

Sexualised visions of women, that actual women would be utterly vilified for.

Double standards = male privilege.

It's sexism in plain sight.

And it becomes worse when they speak on behalf of women.

So you get Paris Lees saying I'm a woman, therefore what I say is representative, and I'm saying objectification is hot.

Monroe Bergdorf claiming that they are speaking as a woman, telling women, on a women's march, not to talk about their reproductive issues!

It's the biggest con in history.

It is hard to read these threads when you think of trans friends. I have a post operative transsexual family member (who is actually gender critical herself!) and I did start off thinking that feminists were just being big meanies. But then I found out quite how misogynistic and homophobic trans ideology (note, not all trans people) is. Transactivism is a large threat to womens rights, and women need to fight back against it. This does not mean said women hate all trans people or anything, it simply means women recognise the male pattern abuse thats rampant in transactivism. And women, especially feminists, have a lot of experience in this behavior. So the time comes where we stop trying to be 'nice' and have to think of ourselves. There was a time on this foprum where near every post started with 'not all trans people' but that seems a bit pointless now as surely noone can think that we mean every single trans person anyway, its quite like the 'Not All Men Are Like That' thing.