To think men get a fantastic deal here?

You can't have a country with a pay as you go system of health care and pensions if you don't have enough children to pay as you go when you are old.

I'd suggest anyone who believes that the responsibility for children (and their mothers) falls solely on the couples who have them go and look at fertility policies in low birth rate countries.

Whilst I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to some state intervention to help mothers, I fundamentally believe that if practicable and affordable then parents should pay for their children.

So if all the women turn around and say fuck this, I'm not having any children because it fucks up my economic independence in a way it doesn't for men, who is going to pay your pension? Nobody will be generating any GDP to pay it, or anything else you need. Because no children.

I suppose you could argue that women live longer than men, and this is partly due to reproductive capacity, so we get our reward in the end? (I don't know whether that means we consume more health and social care resources then males, though.)

Furthermore, female hormones and the role of women in reproduction have been linked to greater longevity. Estrogen, for example, facilitates the elimination of bad cholesterol and thus may offer some protection against heart disease; testosterone, on the other hand, has been linked to violence and risk taking. Finally, the female body has to make reserves to accommodate the needs of pregnancy and breast feeding; this ability has been associated with a greater ability to cope with overeating and eliminating excess food.

And that's irrelevant to lower pension income due to child-rearing, of course.

Women definitely have the rough end of the deal, so happy I’m on the pill so I never have to have periods again

They're also society's children. And society must have children. So the women having them are as much a necessity to a growing economy as the entrepreneurs. This understanding is what it is needed at macro economic level.

Yy was coming to say this!

I don’t think the answer is to have financial compensation payable from fathers to mothers.

I don’t see how that would help.

There may be an argument that some financial support for the adult sometimes becomes an obligation in situations outside the contractual agreement of marriage.

Also fine with higher taxes. Taxes come from the GDP contribution to society and should be redistributed to the reproductive and care economies to achieve equity between them. I don't think this is something that even a change in social practises by individual couples can manage.

I think those are great ideas lang

I’m more in favour of state support (which will mean higher taxes but I’m fine with that). Rather than individuals paying money to the mother of their children.

Caring premium as a cash transfer?

Better pension credits for caring responsibilities?

Free retraining/upskilling for returning mothers?

Accelerated career paths for returning mothers?

Would you be opposed to a future father being forced to contribute towards the loss of earnings and general costs incurred by the mother that were associated with carrying and giving birth to his baby

I wouldn’t be opposed to it completely.

But what exactly is the proposal?

Loss of earnings to be funded by the father? You could end up with a low earning father trying to cover a high earning mother.

It could lead to men abdicating practical care as they’ve “paid” the mother to give birth and care for the baby.

I’m not against it. I just what to know what the proposal actually looks like.

But they're not just your children are they? That's the whole point, they are both of your children.

They're also society's children. And society must have children. So the women having them are as much a necessity to a growing economy as the entrepreneurs. This understanding is what it is needed at macro economic level.

As a society we need to stop giving the impression women can have it all by going to work AND having children. And stop making being a sahm seem like a lesser option. Or that going back to work is somehow the more feminist choice. At least that's the impression I was given (may not apply to everyone). We need better ways for mums to work from home. And boys need to be brought up to recognise the issues their mum's and sisters and daughter have to deal with. It wasn't until I actually had a child that I realised my ideas counted for precisely zero as my biology trumped that.

I saw someone say on here once tbat they disliked being a mum but would loved to have been a dad.

I was very struck by the unfairness of it all when my twins were small.

Pregnancy was very hard on me physically, I was very unwell and my health has been shot to pieces since. My body is a mess, my hormones are a mess. Birth was physically and mentally traumatic and I’m still dealing with that. My husband got to see our babies being born, I didn’t get to lay to eyes on them for seven hours. I’ve had postnatal depression and anxiety, I pumped for 7 months, I carry most of the emotional burden and mental load.

DH got to have sex once and now has two kids.

It doesn’t seem fair does it? Can’t be helped obviously but a little acknowledgement goes a long way. Fortunately my husband is very appreciative of what I’ve been through in order for us to have children.

ok, our children (if I’m honest mine / our doesn’t really make much difference to me).

If he chose to leave you at the point of conception his rights to the children would not necessarily lessen but his responsibility to support you through pregnancy, birth and the aftermath would

So what are you actually proposing? It sounds like payment for reproducing.

Sloth I do think our current culture is very hostile to childless by choice women, women are expected to procreate. Yes, it would be good if women thought more about (and were told more about) the impact of having children and could make a more informed decision, without facing hostility for deciding to be child free.

Yes, agree, and while I wish women would think the consequences of children through properly, I acknowledge our society does make it EXTREMELY difficult to do this in a relatively impartial way.

I’m now nearing the end of my thirties so my window for motherhood is soon to close, or may already have, and I still can’t decide if I truly want a biological child (already have an older DSS, but no experience of babies) or if I’m just terrified of missing out on something that’s been falsely touted as an “essential” part of womanhood. It’s so hard. There is such a clear stigma, or a feeling of pity, towards older childless women. I have even felt that pity towards them myself, despite the fact I’m fast becoming one of them and I don’t feel myself deserving of pity. The propaganda is so strong. And so many facts are deliberately concealed.

I think illnesses and conditions that occur in an otherwise healthy woman as a result of reproduction should be viewed slightly differently

Why? I’m not being goady just genuinely wondering why a birth injury is more worthy of treatment than another medical condition.

Why is it assumed men can benefit equally from the fruits of the elements women's reproductive biology that ultimately disadvantage us

I don’t think I need to be compensated for giving birth to my children.

Better maternity pay, actual decent paternity leave for dh and child care that costs less than my mortgage would be far more beneficial.

Sloth I do think our current culture is very hostile to childless by choice women, women are expected to procreate. Yes, it would be good if women thought more about (and were told more about) the impact of having children and could make a more informed decision, without facing hostility for deciding to be child free.

Completely agree with Lang too

At some point, for women's liberation, we have to acknowledge that not every contribution to the economy comes in measurable GDP economic growth.

That was a bit off topic, apologies.

There are definitely biological issues that hit only women. But I'm currently pretty grateful for my own relative health compared with DH's. He seems to have a whole raft of health problems that cause GPs and consultants to shrug and say, 'Well, the main risk factors are that you're male and you're tall, sorry.'