'Get the L Out' Statement by the lesbian protesters at Pride London

Cistern, you say:

Trans-women (and those who do not identify as male - though I suspect this is more specifically targeting trans-women based on the appalling medical transition comment) are not men. This is unequivocally anti-trans in that it implies transgender individuals are only their 'preferred' gender socially - which is later deemed conservatism and effectively dismisses trans people entirely.

But transwomen are only their preferred gender socially. Human beings can't change sex. Transwomen can take steps to alter their presentation or their body, but they remain male.

I don't understand why you think that knowing people can't change sex "dismisses" trans people. You're there. We see and hear you. We spend time with you. But we won't collude in delusion.

I'm still chortling at the notion lesbians have made it because Beth Jordache slow-smooched another attractive feminine woman on a soap decades ago.

I'm tired and don't have the energy to reply to everything you've said cistern so forgive me.

Your claim that transwomen are not men is something that I suspect I am not allowed to counter on this thread, but I disagree. My previous sentence is not 'anti-trans' but 'pro-female'. I am further than conservative than you can imagine, but this is fact, not fiction.

Cis-women have the privilege of not having to conform to gender stereotyping, whereas if a trans-woman does this, her entire identity is challenged (clearly even within the LGBT community). All I can say on this statement is AAARRGHH, because I'm constrained by politeness and MNHQ from saying what I think most readers would say. Head-fuck time:- so 'cis' women have the privilege of not being confined by gender sterotypes but 'trans' people are? Do you know any females?

Also a) Reminder to you, when you talk about post-hormone therapy, the majority of males who call themselves women including some who claim they are lesbians do not seek any treatment, either hormonal or surgery.

b) your statement that post-hormone therapy 'their anatomy 'behaves' in a similar way to female anatomy? How on earth does a penis on hormone therapy suddenly 'behave' like the complex anatomy of a biological female? Really? Yet again, I would question whether you've been around any biological females?

In fact, there are around just as many trans lesbians as there are cis

In the anime, fantasy, online world maybe.

Wanders off the thread trying to imagine a 'post-hormone therapy penis' behaving like female anatomy!!!

Please don't say cis lesbian

How are lesbians cis?

How is being female and homosexual conforming to societal expectations of womanhood and femininity?

Listen to lesbians.
If you don't, I can't see how you're that brilliant a feminist.

You can listen to lesbians without hating anyone, I promise. You can listen and feel ok about being straight yourself. You're not going to hear much while plopping bossy nonsense on threads like this though - why post if you don't want to learn and have your opinion challenged?

Indeed.

To all the other comments telling me to bugger off and that I know nothing about the lesbian experience… you're right. But then… would it be fair to say you know nothing about the trans experience either?

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, it was the arrogance and flippancy of the suggestion that things are fine for lesbians now as there are quite a few on TV that moved me to comment.

I would never say oh, 'I know about the refugee experience because I watched a documentary' to a group of refugees.

It's nothing to do with my views on trans people or anything else - your comment on lesbian issues being largely solved and your evidence being TV just smacked of privilege.

'Society (certainly in this country) gets lesbianism now'
hahaha nope

In the same way that 'society' understands Muslims to the extent they can make funny jokes about being hungry during Ramadan, society understands lesbians to the extent that they will ask pretty ones to have a threesome with men, and will hope less conventionally beautiful ones stay at home and don't interrupt their fantasising.

I can't go out with my girlfriend without fearing and at times experiencing violence. And now the 'progressive' community tells me I'm wrong for conceptualising my orientation as sexual rather than based on gender.

Listen to lesbians.
If you don't, I can't see how you're that brilliant a feminist.

You can listen to lesbians without hating anyone, I promise. You can listen and feel ok about being straight yourself. You're not going to hear much while plopping bossy nonsense on threads like this though - why post if you don't want to learn and have your opinion challenged?

*GRA consultation

The trans community is small and trying to get a voice

No, I think the trans community is quite well heard.

At a UK level, the Government Equalities Office conducted its first annual survey of transgender people in 2009 to try to understand their needs. An action plan was published under Teresa May in the Home Office in 2011. It is quite comprehensive, although it tends to assume trans = gender dysphoria. I am fairly sure you could plot a line from this action plan to the current GRA with trans lobby groups meeting along the way with the government. Indeed, the government were reaching out to trans individuals and groups from that action plan onwards. So trans individuals and groups ARE being given a voice and have been for a good number of years. This is right and proper.

What is missing is the impact assessment of changing access to various provisions from sex based criteria to gender-based criteria and from observable biological markers to individual ‘innate’ identities.

What is also apparent is loud and vocal shouting down of female bodied people who question the lack of impact assessment, and the presence of male-bodied people in previously same-sex spaces (or relationship models, for that matter).

The Scottish government website hosts advisory content from Stonewall and Scots Transgender Alliance about trans school children, where there has been no impact assessment done. It is parents who might object to that guidance who are denied a voice.

When trans groups hashtags nodebate, it is not the trans community being denied a voice.

When women ask for risk assessments, ask for same-sex spaces, state that this means female-bodied people only, they are decried as bigoted, and transphobic. So, I really do not believe it is trans people who are struggling to make themselves heard. I hear trans voices loud and clear. I just do not agree with what is being said.

So… me again. Seems mumsnet sent me the notifications anyway! Yes I was scared of you. No I shouldn't have run away. No idea if I'm replying to the whole thread or a specific post, so…

It looks like some more people posted while I was writing - apologies if I double-plopped.

I have read the links, @R0wantrees, thanks for taking the time. They make a lot more sense than the original statement. I guess I can see what's being said, and - as I said - I'm not really qualified to comment. But yeah - the podcast I listened to really got me thinking and there just didn't seem to be any representation of that angle so I stuck my oar in. Maybe poorly, maybe in the wrong place, but hey ho.

To all the other comments telling me to bugger off and that I know nothing about the lesbian experience… you're right. But then… would it be fair to say you know nothing about the trans experience either?

Sorry if I'm the wrong kind of feminist. Actually no, not sorry. I'm a bloody brilliant feminist! But a slightly sheepish one.

This HAS gone better than the one and only time I posted on reddit, at least!

Sheep, you say feel free to rip me to shreds on here.

You think your incontinent pile of steaming sheep shit is worth my time? Don't flatter yourself.

Dumping on a thread and running off is pretty childish. Do you knock on people's doors and run away too?

Society (certainly in this country) gets lesbianism now. Women's rights and gay rights still have a long way to go, but it's been 20 years since Brookside's first pre-watershed lesbian kiss. And there are an increasing number of great TV and film characters to help joe public understand the lesbian experience.

Lesbians don't live in fantasy TV world where they get married and everyone is happy for them and they skip merrily off into the sunset with their six cats though.

I and many of my lesbian friends were harassed by random men on Saturday merely for existing. This is normal for lots of lesbians, especially those who have the audacity to wear a skirt or have long hair while simultaneously being gay.

It's wonderful that people watching TV think they now understand the lesbian experience, but if that's the extent of their frame of reference, they really don't.

Here’s why you’re all wrong. I’m not going to stay and debate though. Also I’ve heard you’re all nasty feminists, please don’t be unkind to poor little me, I’m just sticking up for the poor oppressed trans people against the hateful Mumsnet feminists. Aren’t I brave?

Nailed it

Oh dear @freezingsheep, you've rather naively outed yourself as "the wrong kind of feminist" for Mumsnet.

freezingsheep

I don't use Twitter so I won't be @ing you

It's interesting to me how much you've pleaded for people not to be mean. It's almost as if you are making a statement that we just are going to pull you apart.

if you want a response, it's rude to just say your point and then bugger off. I am not running after you. If you want to come back I'll debate . Some of your points are interesting, and worth answering

@freezingsheep

Rape CULTURE.

Freezing sheep,
You are a straight woman who has no idea what it is the be experiencing lesbian erasure.

You reference Brookside falls off chair laughing

What we are telling you is that lesbians are being forced to accept trans ideology that is fundamentally homophobic.

I would not presume to tell you what it's like to be straight. Don't school me on my sexual orientation. Its deeply offensive.

Was that nice enough?

That was really just another plop, in a slightly longer form, from freezingsheep wasn’t it?

Here’s why you’re all wrong. I’m not going to stay and debate though. Also I’ve heard you’re all nasty feminists, please don’t be unkind to poor little me, I’m just sticking up for the poor oppressed trans people against the hateful Mumsnet feminists. Aren’t I brave?

Hi all - I'm new here so please be gentle with me. My friend and I have been having a lot of discussions recently about trans rights and women's rights and this morning she sent me a link to this post. I've joined because I wanted to say something that I haven't seen anyone else on this thread say yet (apologies if people have said this elsewhere, but like I said, I'm new here.)

So... a bit of context: I'm a woman, a feminist, straight. Like many people, I have some gay friends, but no trans friends. I didn't know much (or honestly think much) about trans people a few months ago, but I've since being doing some reading, some listening (cheerful.libsyn.com/episode-9-transgender-rights-are-human-rights), some debating and some fact-checking. So with that in mind...

There are a few things here that make me... uncomfortable. And I say this not because I am necessarily qualified to comment, but because this is mumsnet and, in all likelihood, there are probably not too many trans people on here to speak for themselves. So, with my straight-feminist-but-otherwise-relatively-impartial hat on, a few thoughts, for balance:

Having read the statement from Get the L Out, I have to concur that - to me - their message reads way more anti-trans than pro-lesbian. Don't lynch me just yet, here's why...

Society (certainly in this country) gets lesbianism now. Women's rights and gay rights still have a long way to go, but it's been 20 years since Brookside's first pre-watershed lesbian kiss. And there are an increasing number of great TV and film characters to help joe public understand the lesbian experience. Not so for trans people.

There are trans characters, sure, but it seems that there's not much out there for a young trans person to identify with, and say yes - this was my experience. And for us to watch and understand trans people better. Partly this is because there are so few trans people and so few trans writers as a consequence. But that means there is an information hole... and this leaflet seems to be spreading "information" that just isn't true.

I won't go point by point, but a couple of things pop out specifically:

1. People who desperately want to transition are struggling to get the meds they want. Being forced to change sex is not "a thing". Please do listen to the podcast. You can be outraged at the end if you want, but at least you'll have a few more facts. There are some good interviewees on there explaining their own experiences. It's worth it, I promise.

1. I cannot believe this extract: "Promotes the rights of heterosexual males who “identify” as women and lesbians (despite most of them still retaining their male genitals) over the rights of lesbians to choose their sexual partners. ...This is simply a new facet to rape culture and compulsory heterosexuality." As a feminist I am fuming at this one. Rape is rape. Show me the law that says any lesbian is allowed to choose her sex partner, even against their will. If that were the case, then yes, allowing men to self-classify as lesbians so they can rape whoever they want is very harmful, but honestly no more harmful than saying lesbians can rape whoever they want. Moreover, this statement is insidiously trying to plant the seed that trans women are just in it to rape women. Get out and stay out.

Honestly, I am really dismayed that this statement speaks to so many people. The trans community is small, and trying to get a voice. Women's rights are human rights, but trans rights are human rights too. There are not a limited number of rights to go around - it's not a zero sum game. Trans women are some of the most vulnerable people in our society and I don't see why feminists shouldn't support our trans sisters (and brothers) - feminism is about equality for all. In many cases, they need that support even more than we do. It's really easy to understand more about trans issues if you want to - just look for sources that are written by trans people, and not just about trans people.

Ok - I've said a lot, and thank you if you've read this far. I probably won't be back on to read replies, as I just joined to say this, so feel free to rip me to shreds on here (although I hope you won't... too much to ask for?) If you want to reply or ask me anything where I can hear it and get back to you, I'm over on twitter - @freezingsheep, but I have quite high quality filters on, so please be nice or I won't see it...

This comment underneath the muffins article pretty much nailed it for me:

*Basically if you don't meet the requirements of conforming to sexist stereotypes about being:

• a girl as soft, gentle, into pink, quiet,
• and a boy as boisterous, aggressive and loud,

then there's something wrong with you - you're in the wrong muffin, which means these tax funded bodies can help you to mutilate your body with surgery or clothing (breast binding) and give you synthetic hormones for a lifetime. This is going on widely in schools. Children are told they are born in the wrong body if they like do not conform to gender (social roles) stereotyped toys and interests.

This really has to stop. The analogy with harmless muffins is actually quite frightening.

Remember every young person will have these identity issues at some point in their stages of development, because gender-roles are constraining, girls can climb trees, boys can like cooking - it doesn't mean they are born in the wrong body - it means they have interests*