Misogynistic bros part 1 zillion: Stephen Fry

I agree Joan and SirVix...lots of misogyny amongst gay men IME.

I always think it's also a power thing...what every oppressed group since the dawn of time has done; which is, to find a group that are even more oppressed than I; then gain status - identify with the oppressor by discriminating even further against a lower group.

So the hierarchy is:
Straight white men
Straight other ethnicities men
Non-straight men.
Women (of any shape or creed......unless you were formerly a man- in which case, I can identify with.......^)

In Stephen F's case, it's quite straightforward, I reckon.
He is/was marginalised by being homosexual but has gained power by virtue of his supposed intellect and by non-apologetic discrimination against women.

I enjoy his programmes and his intellectual arguments but I really really dislike his need to co-opt power by condescending.

SirVix

But there is a lot of freely expressed misogyny amongst gay men

I think this is typical male bonding via attacking women as the other. Gay men are just as likely to be misogynist as any other men, it's the way men are socialised.

In terms of Stephen Fry on QI though, it's a gay man using his het male audience's misogyny and homophobia to bond with them. Fry is literally all about the men, he probably doesn't norice the women in the audience, we are less than irrelevant to him.

The bit that gives me the rage is the constant accusation that certain feminists (the ones who aren't nice) aren't inclusive.

Yes, I am getting a bit tired of hearing the word 'inclusive'? Why does everything have to be inclusive?

The bit that gives me the rage is the constant accusation that certain feminists (the ones who aren't nice) aren't inclusive. WTF? Who decided they should be? If you have one issue, why should you have to dilute support by including every bugger who wants to tag along?

I'd vote for the Greens if they stuck with 'the environment'. But no, they have to prove how woke they are by dragging in anything else they can think of.

Hmm yes, I can see that Joan. I think that is true. But there is a lot of freely expressed misogyny amongst gay men, the worst stuff I’ve heard about women’s “disgusting” bodies has been from gay men in gay bars and clubs.

Let out a bit

Stephen Fry often did that disgusted and repulsed thing whenever anything to do with women’s bodies came up on QI.

It is a lazy joke for easy laughs. Heterosexual men get to let out a not of misogyny and homophobia at the same time by laughing at both women's disgusting bodies and gay men's disgusting sexualities while showing how progressive they are by laughing at a gay man's jokes instead of spitting on him.

He is an utter prick and has nailed his colours to the mast once again.

Given that Mr Fry told sex abuse survivors to grow up and get on with it, because self-pity is a horrible thing and he can't have any sympathy for you unless you stop being sad about your rape or child abuse, I don't think I'm going to take much of what he says about anything seriously.

He did subsequently apologise, but in such a way as to make it sound as if it wasn't really what he'd said that was at fault, but stupid people's interpretation of what he'd clearly said.

What infuriates me about this is how one-directional it is. Lesbians who declare that 'lesbian = female homosexual' are transphobic bigots, TERFS, who need to be silenced and shunned. Yet it would not be controversial to say that 'gay man = male homosexual'. No-one is debating the meaning of the word 'man'. No-one is forcing male homosexuals to accept transmen in their traditional spaces where they typically meet other gay men in an accepting environment.

Why is it that only lesbians must accept and acknowledge transwomen in their spaces when no-one is shouting from the rooftops about the 'transphobia' of gay men who refuse to take transmen seriously as members of their community? Transwomen are incredibly vocal and hate-filled in their condemnation of lesbians and even have a slur that is largely directed at 'cis'-women, TERF, yet there is no equivalent hatred coming from transmen.

I can only conclude that most of this 'TERF'-hatred is driven by misogyny and the born-male privilege of these transwomen is what powers them to dominate the media narrative and get their voices heard while the voices of women, lesbians or otherwise, are silenced.

@HollowTalk who was that?

saying something along the lines of 'I know women say they like sex but if they did they'd be out cottaging in parks' - wow, he is showing that he can only imagine a male perspective. The female perspective, and enjoying sex on different terms doesn't exist for him. He can't fathom it.

I think he should be embarrassed as well. Even before his comments I remember thinking he wasn't as intelligent as he believed he was. He made it his Brand, that's all.

I’ve long thought he drips with misogyny. He’s so thoroughly sanctimonious and not even close to how intelligent he thinks he is.

He should be embarrassed by that tweet. It’s all over the place when subjected to any kind of intellectual rigour. I can’t bear him.

I lost all respect for Stephen Fry when he insulted that woman who'd won an award.

FrenchDucksSayCoinCoin

I like what you wrote too.

Maybe the slight difference between you and me, say, is that what you think is a minority, I think is the majority.

I used to think it was just a handful of vocal, misogynistic men, whether they were genuinely trans or not.

But it seems to have snowballed, attracting the worst, possible kind of misogynist.

And you're quite right, once you start to see sexism, it's like the goggles come off and it's everywhere.

Thanks FrenchDucks I like what you wrote x

Tells, Biology, Eresh thanks for acknowledging. I will certainly consider my use of language further. I am new to this and confused and hurt and angry to see that women are being suppressed in ways I hadn’t noticed previously.

Stephen Fry often did that disgusted and repulsed thing whenever anything to do with women’s bodies came up on QI.

Exactly. Cis is a redundant word. Woman will do nicely - just as it has since the beginning of time.

I feel so lucky to be cis. I’m not trans, and I’m grateful for it. But if anyone, cis, trans, otherwise, wants to tell me I must accept being penetrated by their penis, and that being reluctant about that makes me the bad person in the situation, then no. NO. I don’t accept that

I suggest strongly that you stop using the word cis. Just use the word woman.

Am I really off the mark? Sorry for the essay, but some things fell into place when I read that tweet. Actually, I rescind that apology. I’m allowed to be a person with an opinion, despite having been conditioned otherwise.

I have been getting so cross about this. I seem to be cross a lot lately, I feel that I’m seeing sexism everywhere, and it’s driving me crazy. For some reason, though, this whole trans debate is getting a lot of the focus of my anger. I’m angry with the terms used on both sides, angry at the lack of tolerance I’m seeing, just angry in more directions than I can handle.

I used to have an eating disorder. I know it’s not the same thing, but I have some insight into feeling strongly that my body is all wrong, some insight into having a burning determination to change it and make it comply with my idea of what it should be instead. I hated my body, but at least I never felt that is was literally comprised of the wrong parts. I cannot begin to imagine the pain of that.

So for that reason, I have a lot of sympathy with trans people. I’m grateful not to be trans. I don’t mind the term cis, though I know a lot of people hate it and are offended by it, but I don’t mind it because I don’t want to be termed as non-trans, in the same way I don’t want to be called non-male. I’m uncomfortable with non-white for the same reason.

So, I felt, largely, that we, society, need to show a bit more tolerance towards those who are trans.

Except, then there are these issues with toilets and other single sex spaces and sport...and I don’t know what to do about those things so I think perhaps I shouldn’t be allowed an opinion at all.

So I think perhaps my way of settling this in my head is that I’m okay with post-op transsexuals, but not pre-op. Except that means the exact same person apart from the timing, so that can’t be right, and my opinion, again, is null and void.

Then this happens. Lesbians being hounded for going to pride and saying “I’m a lesbian, and I do not want to have a penis in my vagina”. I understand that. I don’t want a naked penis anywhere near me. Regardless of to whom that penis is attached, I just don’t. I don’t feel like it. I don’t have to have sex with anyone, ever, if I’m not in the mood to do so, and I do not want people, any people, to make me feel badly about that.

I work in an office with mostly men. If any of them, tomorrow, came out as trans and needed to use the women’s toilets, I’d be okay with that. Except one of them, because he’s a creepy fucker, regardless of what name he goes by.

That may, I think, be the crux of it. Men are mostly fine, except when they’re not. That sentence is true when you replace the word ‘men’ with ‘women’, ‘transexuals’, ‘penguins’, almost anything.

And finally, I think I may have figured out what I think about it all.

I’m not transphobic, and I do not need to fear having that thrown at me as an insult. In exactly the same way, I’m not anti-Christian , and I don’t need to fear being called so for thinking that the Westboro Baptist Church is a shower of hatred. They might call themselves Christian, but I don’t have to agree. I do not hold Muslims responsible for terrorism committed by terrorists calling themselves followers of Islam. I do not hold trans women or trans men responsible for the views of a vocal minority. That vocal minority might like to call lesbians transphobic for not wanting to sleep with them, but they can bog right off. My vagina, my right to decide what does or, more usually, does not get to access it.

I feel so lucky to be cis. I’m not trans, and I’m grateful for it. But if anyone, cis, trans, otherwise, wants to tell me I must accept being penetrated by their penis, and that being reluctant about that makes me the bad person in the situation, then no. NO. I don’t accept that.

A few years ago he was on a chat show.Can't remember whose, but I remember the "joke" he told about being gay. He said that after the experience of being born he decided "there was no way I was going back up there again".

That is his attitude to women, writ large.

H'm. I don't exactly hold Fry in such opprobrium as some of you. It sounds like he thought a bit but not enough. After all, the mainstream view - the one that won't get you threatened - is TWAW.