Jeremy Corbyn now supports the Nordic model

If you don't want to listen to punters and sex workers then you are being wilfully ignorant of how our industry operates

How do you know this? How do you know what other anonymous users on an internet message board know? Some of us here may have history of working in the industry or have friends and relatives with such. Some of us may have worked or volunteered in women's orgs running exit programmes (I am one such, for example).

It's not your way or we must be ignorant.

I'll say again: no, I do not want to hear from punters.

NO.

Aren’t there other positive aspects to the Nordic model as well?

If prostitutes are not at risk of being criminalised then won’t they feel more confident about contacting police about rape and assault or concerns about certain men?

The mental image of the creepy little gnome hunched over his spreadsheet is quite something.

I can recommend this as an account of life in a country with full decrim, notsolittlegrebe

s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/welcome-to-paradise/

If we seem short with other posters, this is because we've had many, many threads about this in the past, and a handful of the same posters show up on every single one. There's one guy n particular who's on this thread who I think has mentioned in the past that he keeps a spreadsheet (a fucking spreadsheet) of every single thing posters on here who are exited prostitutes who campaign for the Nordic model have ever said, so he can cross-reference their posts and try to catch them out on minor inconsistencies.

There really are some complete creeps, and they all come out of the woodwork. (There are also some women who say they're happy in prostitution - but I take a "first do no harm" approach - if they have to find an alternative livelihood so that women who don't want to be forced into prostitution are protected, then so be it.)

Love that everyone is giving sarky one-liners in response to "Surely hearing from punters is a good thing as well." and completely ignoring everything else I've said.

If you don't want to listen to punters and sex workers then you are being wilfully ignorant of how our industry operates, the ways to make the industry safer, and the reasons we're involved in it.
Thus you can only ever put forward your own prejudice in place of fact and reasoned, informed debate.

I expect more from the feminists here and I'm honestly deeply disappointed.

I'm honestly not sure whether the Nordic model is a good idea or not but I'm fairly certain that the issue is, in fact, "complicated". Also sure that actual sex workers expressing their opinions shouldn't be dismissed as "happy hookers" or "the Incels Debate Club" and have their arguments completely shut down. What happened to MN being about robust, intelligent debate?

Non, nein, nyet, etc.

Another one here who has no desire to hear what lies and deceits misogynistic men come out with to justify their misogyny. They can fuck off to the far side of fuck.

Or more succinctly, as Lang says, no.

It really isn't that complicated. Legalised prostitution fucks over women - all women. The ones who are trafficked unwillingly. The ones who are groomed into it as teenagers out of financial desperation. The ones who aren't actually prostitutes themselves but have to live in a society where men think it's okay to buy women.

This.

Surely hearing from punters is a good thing as well.

No. That's the kind of no that is a complete sentence, not the beginning of a negotiation. No. That no.

Dixie and Fermats - I'm a fairly regular poster on MN. Feel free to check my post history if you have doubts about me.

Sweden introduces the eponymously named Nordic model, trafficking goes down

• Wrong. Quite a few statistics show that trafficking actually increased in Sweden. Please do some reading before you talk nonsense.

Germany goes down the complete decrim route

• Wrong. Germany's law is legalisation not decriminalisation. Legalisation led to the super-brothels and low pay rates. No one supports that model in the UK.

I'm happy to sit here and debate the ins and outs of the various models, their impacts, and provide links to supporting evidence. But when people come away with regurgitated nonsense and clearly haven't done any proper reading on the subject I have to give it the face.

Surely hearing from punters is a good thing as well.

Nah. I've heard enough from them to last me a lifetime.

Gawd, I see the klaxon has gone off at p**ternet central, and the fuckers are swarming all over this thread like fucking cockroaches.

For me it's quite simple. Sweden, Germany - socially and culturally similar countries. Sweden introduces the eponymously named Nordic model, trafficking goes down. Women still can be prostitutes - they're not the ones being criminalised - but as soon as the creepy fuckers who want to pay to fuck unwilling women step out of line, those creepy fuckers can be arrested. Germany goes down the complete decrim route - mega brothels, drive-by booths on motorway services, trafficking rockets , women are on their knees in the gutter giving blow jobs for less than the price of a big mac.

It really isn't that complicated. Legalised prostitution fucks over women - all women. The ones who are trafficked unwillingly. The ones who are groomed into it as teenagers out of financial desperation. The ones who aren't actually prostitutes themselves but have to live in a society where men think it's okay to buy women. If a tiny number of happy hookers have to get jobs stacking shelves in Sainsburys in order to protect the rest of us, well, boo hoo, cry me a river.

I can't say there are 'loads', there's no official figure for this - which also means you can't say that they don't report.

Why does this type of argument have such a whiff of Incels Debate Club about it? It certainly doesn't read as a prostitute talking about something as serious as sex trafficking.

This "going underground" argument is always repeated.

Prostitution in the UK is already "underground". You can't be blatant about it. Adding one more thing to the long list of things that are already illegal won't change an awful much.

It's really good news. After being pro Corbyn then going massively off him, I'm warming to the Corbyn camp again.

Not all sex workers oppose the Nordic Model. I support it because it streamlines the process and the way it is enforced is pro-worker.

The idea that loads of men are shit hot on ringing the police when they suspect trafficking is a nice idea but it's not true.

I can't say there are 'loads', there's no official figure for this - which also means you can't say that they don't report.

I do know that some of my own clients have reported it when they've suspected trafficking or abuse. (And some tell me about it hoping I'll report it so they don't have to risk outting themselves as a punter.)

Stigma is not a good thing in our industry - it leads to the industry going underground and increased violence.
We need to keep lines of communication open with the police, not create a situation where punters and sex workers are too afraid to report crimes.

p*nternet had/has plenty of comments abtut thinking the woman was not there of her own free will and fucking her anyway.

The idea that loads of men are shit hot on ringing the police when they suspect trafficking is a nice idea but it's not true.

"A lot of them report trafficking and child abuse when they suspect it. "

They don't though do they.

There was a thing about this I read a while ago - wouldn't be able to find it now. The men in the stuations in the 2 news reports, they didn't report. In the one with the kidnapped girl, they just put an ad out, it wasn't their mates or anything, it was ordinary men who reponded to an ad for a prostitute.

Men who pay for sex are scum, too fucking right they should be stigmatised.

*Woman who had kids was working as a prostitute, the men were sexually abusing her kids while they were there, in the other rooms. She got done for not looking after her children properly. None of the men got done, not even a mention in the article of looking for them.

Girl was kidnapped and drugged and the two men put an ad out. Men came to pay for sex.*

We already have laws to protect child abuse victims (and against trafficking, before that comes up). Perhaps we should be enforcing those existing laws, rather than creating new laws that criminals still won't give a stuff about but that do punish and put at risk innocent people.

Not all punters are child abusers (it's a bit nuts to imply that they are.) A lot of them report trafficking and child abuse when they suspect it.
Criminalising the punters will, of course, stop them from reporting anything though.

That would be the same Sarah champion who spent a night in jail for assaulting her husband

The Nordic model simply pushes prostitution underground so that it’s not as visible . Women are not made safer by this law

For traffickers and pimps it’s Christmas come early
For independent sex workers like Brazen Hussey it won’t stop her working just make it harder and more difficult to screen her clients.

People like Sarah Champion are not interested in speaking to all sex workers only the ones that fit with her agenda .

Quentin - You'll have to excuse me for caring more about the immediate threat of being beaten or robbed than I care about men feeling entitled to sex and the wider impact of that.

As I said upthread, if you want to see the sex industry shrink, give women more options with flexible employment.
Solve the issues women face with poverty, childcare, disabilities, addictions, caring/family duties that are incompatible with current employment options, and you will see a natural decline in the number of women entering sex work without putting them in increased danger.

Decriminalisation isn't perfect, no model is. But it has been proven to be a much safer model for sex workers in our current situation.

Yes awesome sitting around chatting to a bunch of men who see women as a set of holes is a great idea for the feminism board on MN.

We know what men think of women, and men who pay for sex are a subset of men. I know men who have paid for sex, I think they're total cunts (for want of a better word).

2 recent cases:

Woman who had kids was working as a prostitute, the men were sexually abusing her kids while they were there, in the other rooms. She got done for not looking after her children properly. None of the men got done, not even a mention in the article of looking for them.

Girl was kidnapped and drugged and the two men put an ad out. Men came to pay for sex. They MUST have realised that she was v young, and drugged. None called the police, they all fucked her.
She escaped and the 2 men were prosecuted. Not a mention of looking for any of the men who raped her.

Then you can look at rotherham, at the men who solicit schoolgirls, I've been asked "how much" more than once...

Men who pay for sex are not "good men" on the whole, they see women and girls as commodities, as holes. This is not a surprise as it's how lots of men feel about us, if you scratch the surface.

The sale of female bodies undermines and supports this view of women.

Another thought:
I watched an episode of "beign human" I think it was, the first one. One of the robot women was in a brothel, and when they man came in and was fuckign her we were supposed to feel that this was bad.
Yet, when flesh and blood women are prostitued in films, in dramas, it is usually presented as not-bad. As fine.
That was interesting to see. When it's a non human we are expected to understand that this is a bad thing, but when it's a woman, not so much.

brazen decrim puts women at risk by further supporting the patriarchal idea that men are entitled to sex and women should provide it.
Male entitlement to sex causes so many issues in society (rape, harassment, sexual abuse in marriage and to children) and the legitimisation of prostitution props up that entitlement.
As I always say on these threads, the prostitutes agency and motivations are not really what I'm interested in. I want to talk about what model is most likely to change the John's attitudes to women. I don't think decrim will do that.