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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jeremy Corbyn now supports the Nordic model

164 replies

QuarksandLeptons · 08/07/2018 06:47

Such fantastic news and real progress. The leader of the opposition has come out in favour of the Nordic model.

twitter.com/sarahchampionmp/status/1015603574829658112?s=21

This is real progress. Sarah Champion and Jess Phillips must have been instrumental in explaining why this model is needed to Jeremy Corbyn who had previously voiced support for full decriminalisation. Full decriminalisation legally favours the corporate prostitution industry (pimps and buyers) over the safety and dignity of the women who end up in prostitution.

The Nordic model is the name for a legal approach to prostitution where the woman (or man) selling themselves for sex is decriminalised and is not prosecuted. Support services are provided for people leaving prostitution. Pimps, brothel owners and buyers who make money out of or buy women for sex are criminalised.

This model is in use in Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Northern Ireland, Canada, France, and Ireland. Rates of trafficking drop when the model is implemented as it reduces the demand for buying women for sex.

More info here:
nordicmodelnow.org/what-is-the-nordic-model/

OP posts:
notsolittlegrebe · 08/07/2018 16:31

Thanks Brazenhussy0, that's really interesting - I will read the links later.

Another question - if the UK went for the decriminalisation route, would there be anything to stop the development of "mega brothels" or indeed any situation where bosses were legally profiting from the services provided by the sex workers? (I know lots of people have lots of different issues with sex work, but personally this is what disturbs me most).

Ereshkigal · 08/07/2018 16:31

Thing is it’s not only sex workers that matter, it’s all women. The vast majority of sex workers who respond to surveys of sex workers may support full decriminalisation, it’s not really that relevant because we’re not making laws for sex workers here, we’re making criminal laws for all of society.

This. And neither the libertarians or the SJWs grasp this.

BettyDuMonde · 08/07/2018 16:28

And prostitution should be stigmatised. It’s bad for society.

Personally, i’d ban hardcore porn too.

BettyDuMonde · 08/07/2018 16:27

Crime reporting against prostitutes is up? Great! That’s exactly what the Nordic model was created to allow.

Brazenhussy0 · 08/07/2018 16:22

Some facts - prostitutescollective.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Online-Symposium-Report.pdf

And I threatened to copy and paste some of my posts from the other thread to here, so I'm just going to go ahead and do that right now with a few irrelevant bits snipped to shorten it (yes, this is the short version).

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The Home Affairs Committee acknowledged the difficulties with statistics in their 2017 report. The conclusion was basically that there is not enough reliable information to base changing our laws on and we should wait to see how things pan out in Ireland with the Nordic Model.
(If you’re going to pick just one of my links to read, this should be the one.):
publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmhaff/26/26.pdf

It's 2018 now, and things are not looking very good for Irish sex workers. Violence towards sex workers has increased by anywhere from 40-70% (depending on which set of statistics you look at.):
www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2018/03/does-nordic-model-work-what-happened-when-ireland-criminalised-buying-sex?amp

The reason for this is thought to be because the Nordic model works to increase stigma towards sex workers. With more stigma we become ‘othered’, seen as lower beings who are disposable, and who do not have the agency or rights of other women. This narrative creates a situation where we’re viewed as fair game for robberies, assault, rape, etc.

This is a fantastic article by Dr. Kate Lister (March 2018), where she discusses this in some depth:
inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/women/as-a-sex-historian-this-is-what-i-want-you-to-know-about-the-buying-and-selling-of-sex/

I’ll include an extract, for those who are unwilling to read my many, many links! I do thank you, if you’ve taken the time to read this whole post.

-----------------------

Walker celebrates the first anniversary of Ireland’s Sex Buyer’s Laws, the act that criminalises the purchase of sexual services, but not the selling. But when you actually ask sex workers and sex worker rights groups how they feel about the Nordic model, it’s hard to understand what Walker thinks is worth celebrating. In the year since Ireland brought in the Nordic model there has been a 54% increase in crime against sex workers reported to National Ugly Mugs Ireland, and violent crime is up by 77%. The Sex Workers Alliance Ireland (SWAI) strongly opposed the introduction of this law and rightly warned that it would lead to increased violence against sex workers. Walker claims she finds it ‘extraordinary that the purchase of a woman’s body for sex is legal in the UK’. I find it extraordinary that anyone would think a system resulting in a 77% increase in violent crime against the very people it claims to protect, is worthy of celebration.

The Nordic model does not work because by criminalising the client, you in turn criminalise the sex worker. How would you fair if the source of your income was suddenly criminalised? Research from the countries that have adopted the Nordic model shows again and again that ‘end demand’ legislation only place sex workers at significantly greater risk of harm. Criminalising clients may reduce demand from those not wishing to commit a crime, but it does not deter those who wish to hurt sex workers. Once demand has been reduced, competition for less desirable clients increases among sex workers, leading to an increase in risky, dangerous behaviour, such as unprotected sex, working in isolation or in deserted areas. As clients become less willing to directly approach sex workers, Sweden and Norway saw the use of third party negotiators (pimps and madams) increase dramatically.

As Walker’s article makes abundantly clear, the Nordic Model is simply a staging post on the road to abolition. It is part of a wider narrative that refuses to see the sex worker as anything other than a victim to be rescued. Despite excellent work done by sex worker rights groups this ‘sex-work saviour complex’ continues to dominate and shape modern narratives surrounding sex workers. By constructing the sex worker as a victim, she is subtly disempowered, stripped of her own agency, and tacitly presented as inferior. Whilst allowing the saviour space to validate their own moral agenda, it reinforces social hierarchy, and stigmatises the ‘rescued’.

Stigma kills

One of the mantras of the sex worker rights movement is ‘Stigma Kills, and the Nordic model directly re-stigmatises sex workers by moralising that selling and buying sexual services is wrong. In Sweden, this stigma is actually viewed as a welcome effect of the Nordic model as it may help put off potential clients, despite the fact that stigma places sex workers at significantly greater risks of violence (as seen in Ireland over the last year). In 2000, John Lowman identified a ‘discourse of disposability’ in media reports on sex workers, by analysing media descriptions of efforts to abolish sex work by politicians, police and local residents. Lowman linked this with a sharp increase in the murders of street sex workers in British Columbia after 1980. He argues that, ‘It appears that the discourse on prostitution of the early 1980s was dominated by demands to get rid of prostitutes from the streets, creating a social milieu in which violence against prostitutes could flourish. This is how stigma works. Once the sex worker is stigmatised as disposable, a message formed, shaped and deployed in debates around abolition, this discourse then influences how sex workers are treated. And they are not treated well under the Nordic model.

Why aren’t we listening to sex workers?

Why aren’t we listening to the sex workers themselves? Every sex worker rights organisation fights the Nordic model and seeks full discrimination, because it keeps people safe. In a survey of over 200 sex workers, researchers from the University of Northumbria found that 96.2% of respondents did not think people should be criminalised for purchasing sex.

The Nordic model and its supporters tacitly presents sex workers as degenerate, disposable victims in need of rescue. The evidence proves that criminalising clients causes significant harm to those in the sex industry.
A central tenet of feminism is bodily autonomy, sexual agency, the right to say yes and the right to say no, and to have that respected. How can you seriously call yourself a feminist if you insist on denying those same rights to your sister sex workers?

Tinycitrus · 08/07/2018 16:12

Don’t you think the decriminalisation lobby is largely made up of people who see an opportunity to make a serious amount of money running brothels if it ever became a reality?

And how well regulated would they be? Because when you look at other industries which rely on unskilled labour - labouring, restaurant work, cleaning - there is little regulation and a very high risk of exploitation. Why would prostitution be any different?

notsolittlegrebe · 08/07/2018 16:09

Invisibleoldwoman - I found this which is a few years old but quite interesting.. be interested to know what others think

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2015/10/difference-between-decriminalisation-and-legalisation-sex-work%3famp

Offred · 08/07/2018 16:06

Isn’t it funny how increased reporting of assaults on sex workers is seen as unequivocal evidence that full decriminalisation protects sex workers but also unequivocal evidence that the Nordic model increases harm to sex workers....

Thing is it’s not only sex workers that matter, it’s all women. The vast majority of sex workers who respond to surveys of sex workers may support full decriminalisation, it’s not really that relevant because we’re not making laws for sex workers here, we’re making criminal laws for all of society.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 08/07/2018 16:01

This is an interesting insight into decriminalisation in New Zealand

SardinesAreYum · 08/07/2018 16:00

I don't think there will ever be agreement.

Women who know men and know society and take the view that a society which condones men renting women to fuck is not a society that is friendly to women and girls are not likely to change their minds TBH.

The idea that women who support the nordic model are "targeting" prostitues is ridiculous. We are firmly and unapologetically targeting men who pay for sex.

By the way the point unpthread makes no sense. Why is it better to have some non violent men paying for sex + some violent ones, than just the same numebr of violent ones?

Not to mention that serious physical damage is not the only risk of engaging in prostitution.

BettyDuMonde · 08/07/2018 15:56

Choice is an illusion.

FermatsTheorem · 08/07/2018 15:56

Beaver congratulations on raising a strong daughter. How would you feel if she went into prostitution?

invisibleoldwoman · 08/07/2018 15:55

Wrong. Germany's law is legalisation not decriminalisation. Legalisation led to the super-brothels and low pay rates.

I am not sure I understand the distinction between decriminalisation and legalisation and how it matters.

Also, if the Nordic Model is not the solution, what do those opposed to the Nordic Model think is a better solution?

LangCleg · 08/07/2018 15:54

If that's the case then you've only met women who want to leave the sex industry.

Again, how do you know this? Why do you assume? I've given you one piece of information about me, not a life history. As it happens, despite never having been a prostitute myself or engaged in other forms of sex work, I have a wide range of experience concerning this "industry".

And the answer is still NO, I do not want to hear from punters, or believe they have anything to contribute that would be to the benefit of women as an entire class or, more particularly, to the most vulnerable women, whose interests are my priority.

NO.

Brazenhussy0 · 08/07/2018 15:49

N.b. a quick Google does suggest that Germany has legalised, rather than decriminalised, sex work.

@notsolittlegrebe Yet, weirdly, people are still using Germany as an example of failed decriminalisation even though it's an entirely different model to legalisation.
They're also strangely resistant to looking at any reports from New Zealand, where decriminalisation has been a success.

GardenGeek · 08/07/2018 15:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Beaverhausen · 08/07/2018 15:46

Actually the number of women choosing prostitution as a salary supplement or a way to support themselves or their families is in the increase.

Those statistics you are reading about trafficking being on the down is a load of bullcrap but what do we know. These statistics are made up to make an untenable option look viable to the so called do gooders who could not give a proverbial fuck about those it affects.

And yet we have bullies dictating to us grown women how we should live our lives because to them it is not acceptable.

If you are going to fight trafficking fight it the right way do not use freewill sex workers as your targets. You should be ashamed of yourselves and you say you fight for womens rights, where is a womens right to choose to do with her body what she wants too? Just because you find it morally inexcusable.

This is why I am raising my daughter to be a strong woman who will support women no matter what their choices and not to turn into the socalled bullies who like to tag themselves as feminists.

As for Jeremy Corbyn he will support whatever he assumes will get him the votes he needs so please do not feel he is doing it out of the kindness of his heart. If the government and the so called abolitionists wanted to abolish trafficking whether it is sexual or exploitive they would and they could but yet again it is held to ransom for their own selfish needs.

SHAME ON YOU!

Brazenhussy0 · 08/07/2018 15:45

Some of us may have worked or volunteered in women's orgs running exit programmes (I am one such, for example).

If that's the case then you've only met women who want to leave the sex industry. The majority of us who work indoors and are happy with what we do are very rarely taken into account because we don't come into contact with charities running exit programmes.
The only organisations representing us are charities who help us stay safe while we're working (such as National Ugly Mugs) and groups we've had to set up ourselves.

We are a very diverse group and the issue is extremely complex. Shutting out the opinions of people who don't fit the narrative you've constructed in your head is wilful ignorance.

When you say 'No' you will not listen. I'm seeing you sticking your fingers in your ears.
The exact same way TRAs do when their preconceived ideas are challenged.

Ereshkigal · 08/07/2018 15:42

Trafficked women and children aren’t likely to respond to surveys.

This.

notsolittlegrebe · 08/07/2018 15:41

Thanks Fermats, I'll read that.

N.b. a quick Google does suggest that Germany has legalised, rather than decriminalised, sex work.

kistanbul · 08/07/2018 15:40

A lot if the evidence that prostitution is good for some women seems to come from studies about "sex workers" as a whole not prostitutes.

I'm sure that people working on webcams and phone sex lines feel differently about their work than people earning money by having physical sex with others.

Too many studies that show that "sex work" can be positive are very very cagey about how the figure breakdown.

Id like to see a study about the views and experiences of people having sex for money rather than more widely defined "sex workers".

Ereshkigal · 08/07/2018 15:38

That is the best bit of news from Labour I have heard in a long time.

Agree. There is hope for them yet. Now just to peak Jezza.

Ereshkigal · 08/07/2018 15:37

The mental image of the creepy little gnome hunched over his spreadsheet is quite something.

Quite.

invisibleoldwoman · 08/07/2018 15:37

That is the best bit of news from Labour I have heard in a long time.

Countries that have decriminalised prostitution are seeing appalling increases in abuse, trafficking, drugs and related crime.

Germany in particular. There are a number of reports from the Police and others. Decriminalisation has had terrible consequences for women.

Brazenhussy0 · 08/07/2018 15:37

I take a "first do no harm" approach - if they have to find an alternative livelihood so that women who don't want to be forced into prostitution are protected, then so be it.

Great, so consenting women like me leave the sex industry and the non-violent clients leave the sex industry leaving the vulnerable women (who may not be able to get any other kind of work) and the violent criminals to have a great big party where no-one can report the abuse happening because they're scared.
FFS, where is critical thinking on this issue?

And again, you are using Germany as an example. Germany legalised prostitution. Decriminalisation is a different model entirely.
Look up New Zealand if you want a relevant example.

Jesus fucking Christ.

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