I find male bodies in female spaces very threatening....

It's clear that a nuanced response is needed for a situation like the OP described.

It's something that I've personally wrestled with when it comes to safe spaces for women who are specifically triggered with anxiety when confronted with masculine features.

A few points to consider about this are as follows:

Gender policing. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's already heard of some women being accused of being trans when they are not. How does one police this? Is it an honor system or is this something that are required chromosomal or genital check at the door. This is concernig for everyone.

Trans women are at sigtnificant risk of domestic violence from their partners and by people in the street. In a situation like this, it's important that a trans woman would be allowed to feel safe in the same way, but that shouldn't be at the cost of a non-trans woman feeling safe in the space. Hence the problem.

Trans women don't necessarily have masculine features. There's a great many who you'd never be able to tell were trans women without a chromosomal or genital check, which leads us back to gender policing.

I don't think it would be too tragic to assume some areas in a place like a shelter might have trans woman free areas because of trauma. I have no problem with this at all. I've no want to cause someone anxiety with my presence in such a situation like that. But at the same time I think it's important to recognise that trans women need protections too.

So besides gender policing either at the door or at specified areas, I don't know what else can be done, except set aside private spaces for a single individual only and nobody else? Which is super resource intensive.

I don't have a solid answer to this which i believe helps everyone, Trans women need shelter just as much as non-trans in these situations. I think the distinction is that it's masculine physical characteristics that cause the anxiety and not that a trans woman isn't a woman. (this is my opinion only)

I've been a victim of abuse, more times than i care to remember and sometimes you just need to keep triggering things away. That's something I think everyone can agree with.

Also, on the Bespin thing, I just assumed she was a star wars fan
starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bespin

the original Schrödinger's Rapist essay said that a man who demonstrates contempt for women's boundaries, even the relatively minor boundaries of not being engaged in unwanted conversation when waiting for a bus, immediately red-flags himself as a potential rapist

Yes.

If you want to risk assess someone, say no to them about something trivial and see how they react. If they don't accept a trivial no, then they are demonstrating something very significant - and those people cannot help themselves. Invite them to show a red flag and they will show it. Every. Single. Time.

When any man doesn't know his limits, and won't take no for an answer and thinks he's entitled to push women's boundaries and impose himself upon her, he is a threat to all women.

@AngryAttackKittens, the original Schrödinger's Rapist essay said that a man who demonstrates contempt for women's boundaries, even the relatively minor boundaries of not being engaged in unwanted conversation when waiting for a bus, immediately red-flags himself as a potential rapist. This makes sense: someone who won't respect your boundaries on the street won't respect your boundaries in bed. The same rationale can be applied to transwomen, and I've dubbed this "Schrödinger's Terf-slayer" upthread. The transwomen I would consider sharing e.g. a women-only sauna with wouldn't even consider entering uninvited, and it's that respect for our boundaries that makes them safe to be around.

Yep. If a male person knows that at least some women really don't want them there and will be made deeply uncomfortable by their presence and proceeds to enter those spaces anyway then they are demonstrating the fact that they don't care whether or not they cause harm to women and are by definition untrustworthy.

This is even more true if those male people spend a significant amount of time talking to women who keep telling them how uncomfortable that behavior makes them and they still keep doing it, as at that point the "well I didn't realize" excuse is clearly unavailable.

The sort of men we can trust in women only spaces such as changing rooms are the ones that support them being women only.

This.

Yes I am aware of that - however other names that are not an anagram of B-penis are available.

Posted too soon. It's from The Empire Strikes Back.

Actually, to be fair on Bespin, it's the name of a planet from Star Wars.

I really and truly cannot take anyone at face value when they tell us that they are a trans woman and their name on here is an anagram of B-penis.

From a be-cunted one, that in itself is just so goady it makes me cringe every time I see it. Just some sort of sick joke on women.

The YouGov poll is a bit deflating for those trans activists who've spent the past year telling us all that the general public agrees with them and thinks we're past-it bigots, isn't it?

Yes, it is. They spent all that time attacking the wording of the Wings Over Scotland polling question, which got 25% support, too. And now, just a few months later, Pink News commissions a poll and can't even get wording that achieves support over 18%. And only 27% in the youngest demographic.

This speaks volumes.

I will support any fight for a third space and anti trans-bashing/trans-firing/trans-denied-housing laws, but I can no longer endorse you entering women's spaces. This time last year, I would have endorsed that.

A year ago, I would have endorsed post-SRS male bodies in most women's spaces (not refuges, mental health wards or prisons, but most). Now, I don't. At all. Ever. I have seen so much text book male pattern abusive behaviour in transactivism, I can't see any way of it being properly safe for women to share.

The best I can do for trans people now is support third spaces.

The YouGov poll is a bit deflating for those trans activists who've spent the past year telling us all that the general public agrees with them and thinks we're past-it bigots, isn't it? Now if only we could get Justine to take a look at those numbers, because I think she's been gaslighted into thinking that the general public is pro self-ID. They very clearly are not.

Too many people in power or positions of responsibility, have swallowed the TRA’s properganda. I always thought when the general public were exposed to it, they would not agree.
So what are the Girl Guides and all those other people “ahead of the law” going to do now? I would hope they will start listening to the general public, even if they wouldnt listen to feminists.

What difference in women’s issues are you trying to make, Bespin? Just for example?

The sort of men we can trust in women only spaces such as changing rooms are the ones that support them being women only.

And the disingenuous reply above just shows the problem. The first post challenges the right to your own feelings, and the right to want single sex spaces.

No one said Mumsnet is a safe space or a women only space, so reacting as if that was said is dishonest, and an attempt to reframe the debate.

Single sex spaces exist because there is both a need and a desire for them, for reasons including privacy and risk assessment.
Decent people respect that.

The Transcrime and Terfisaslur websites collate ample evidence of this. I've gone from seeing transwomen on the train as brave for being out in public to wondering if they are Schrödinger's Terf Slayer[1]. Unsurprisingly, my willingness to share women's spaces with them has disappeared.

This is me too. When you've seen literally hundreds of members of a group that claims to be the most vulnerable in society threatening to kick women's heads in your brain recalibrates the risk assessment a bit.

The YouGov poll is a bit deflating for those trans activists who've spent the past year telling us all that the general public agrees with them and thinks we're past-it bigots, isn't it? Now if only we could get Justine to take a look at those numbers, because I think she's been gaslighted into thinking that the general public is pro self-ID. They very clearly are not.

I agree. I do not want any male bodies in any of the places where I would expect to only see female bodies. To me it makes no difference whether or not they think they are a woman whatever that means. I do not share their delusion and I do not want them there.

Third spaces will surely have to be the way forward if as they say men are so dangerous to them in their own male spaces.

@Bespin, sadly some of you are the threat we fear. The Transcrime and Terfisaslur websites collate ample evidence of this. I've gone from seeing transwomen on the train as brave for being out in public to wondering if they are Schrödinger's Terf Slayer[1]. Unsurprisingly, my willingness to share women's spaces with them has disappeared. Attempts to find comparable crime by natal women haven't come up fruitless, but the rate of offending is much lower, so I remain willing to share with natal women.

I will support any fight for a third space and anti trans-bashing/trans-firing/trans-denied-housing laws, but I can no longer endorse you entering women's spaces. This time last year, I would have endorsed that.

[1] This is a reference to Tara Wood describing /h(er|im)self/ as "Tara the Terf Slayer" after /h(er|is)/ trial, as well as the Schrödinger's Rapist explanation of women's structural fear of men as a class.

I've mostly worked in a male dominated world, I like the company of men but those few female only places left have been a sanctuary at times. In the past I was puzzled by the way a transwoman colleague junior to me would use physically dominant body language to assert control in the ladies (that we were the only people using) but that was many years ago when I was still under the delusion that transwomen wanted to be women. Now I realise they want to control women and womanhood and in that context that behaviour makes sense.

Here’s a link to a recent You Gov Poll, it shows only 18% agree with self ID.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/07/03/exclusive-just-13-of-tory-voters-agree-with-governments-proposed-transgender-policy/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

The public are only just having their eyes opened to this subject and they do not like it! The feminist board on MNHQ, is not a lone voice concerning this madness

Personally, there are spaces that I need to be biological women only ( or at least penis free) or I would curtail activities such as keeping fit. Rape leaves a mark.

It seems most men respect this, and Many transwomen seem to respect this. And when genuine respect is there, then I would probably be ok sharing facilities with these people also. But that is so hard to judge.

And I would not like that transwomen have to curtail their activities due to lack of suitable facilities. I suspect that many transwomen may feel very uncomfortable around men in some situations. I suspect many transwomen may have suffered abuse and violence. And I am happy to support finding a solution that helps them. Just not at my expense!

And the ones that want to force themselves into women's spaces, which seeem to correlate with the ones who have no surgical or hormonal interventions.. .