I find male bodies in female spaces very threatening....

I am intrigued how those who feel sex-specific spaces cannot include trans people feel a separate space would work? There are two sexes of trans people, so that's at least two more spaces. How many refuges will afford that?

Then how do you decide which trans person belongs in which space because, if you say that everyone has a right to a single sex space, that includes trans people too? If you can't sort that out, then that is discrimination against trans people and unlawful because they are denied the single sex space you have decided must be provided. If you can sort it out then trans people don't need to separated so the separation is unlawful.

A year ago I would have supported access to women’s spaces and actually in is in place anyway under current law with GRC. With sex based exemptions when needed.

Now, never, it is clear that activists have a very misogynistic agend that involves demanding validation from women for their sense of identity.

The gaslighting of women, appropriation of victim and reality the final nail in the coffin was the homophobia. When gay friends are abused and called transphobic for simply having a different opinion.
Fuck it I’m done.

As for the treatment of lesbians, it just beggars belief.

Trying to manipulate and bully others into validating your belief about yourself is a hopeless and powerless route to try and gain self esteem. You can not control others, or what they think of you. Yes you can coerce them into saying what you want to hear. But self esteem and self acceptance can only come from within.

BTW re young women, most are totally unable to speak out about this and through a false smile will acquiesce. They are terrified of being ostricised.

It’s taken me years to stop objectifying myself. Not because I’m a bad feminist, but because the message was so deep, I couldn’t even see it myself.

Young women who have not had the courage to speak out, will when they get older. It can take a long time for women to really find their own voice and run the risk of “ not being nice and possibly hurting others feelings.

This whole agenda is based around the lie of inclusion, which is why it is so hard for anyone to speak out.
Actually it’s about exclusion and trampling all over others rights.

Women already are giving up hard earned places in politics to trans women. This equals exclusion.

I totally support 3 spaces and trans lists in politics, but not if it means women loosing out.

Ah Tells said it more succinctly while I was typing. But it does bear repeating after all. The argument is that if womens spaces are made unisex by allowing trans people in, then any woman who feels threatened can just report it. So why can't transpeople just report any threatening behaviour in mens spaces?

It's the old one rule for XY, a different rule involving not taking no for an answer for XX

I've read a few of these threads recently.

I think the changing room element is a bit of a red herring. My local pool has mixed facilities with cubicles. I would not expect anyone to be wandering about waving body parts around in there regardless of self identity. It's common courtesy. I do however understand why some women would want women only changing rooms. This must be respected if it's wanted, by women. Women are not to become the police of these areas. We already have to police our bodies as it is against some men.

What I do take exception to is the refuge, rape crises and other genuinely women only safe spaces, prisons etc. These are women only for very very good reasons. Women have had to fight for these services and they are underfunded as it is. I have sympathy with trans people needing similar services. But this must not be at the expense of women and their needs.

The best option is a third space rather than forcing women to share their hard won spaces.

I think thats a fallacy there. If you see someone, anyone acting threateningly in those spaces you'd report it or call the police. The fact of the matter is this: what prevents a man walking into those spaces right now and perpetrating the same crimes? The same thing as 20 years ago. Nothing

If that's the case, there's no point trans being in womens spaces because a) they can equally report threatening behaviour and b) violent men will just follow them into womens spaces, nothings stopping them after all. Indeed, trans in womens spaces might make threats or violence more likely if violent men object to their teenage daughter having to share with a penis / male anatomy.

But I do disagree there is nothing stopping men in womens spaces: If a woman complains now she is not risking being charged with hate crime. Women still have the ability to say no in the uk. Also, decent men, indeed decent people, don't go where they make people uncomfortable. And decent people still step in when they see men acting aggressively to women and children. If they could be prosecuted for a hate crime or told doing that is against the law many will no longer do that.

Why do we still have sex segregated services if it doesn't achieve anything and doesn't deter anyone?

I think making way for some of us wouldn't be outside the bounds of empathy.

See, I find appeals to female socialisation to be red flags with respect to understanding and respecting the boundaries of others.

I failed female socialisation, by the way.

@iamagreyhoundhearmeroar agreed.

GhostTess - it seems insensitive to flood this thread with multiple posts saying pretty much the same thing. It looks designed to undermine the OP and make her feel more anxious than she does already. Perhaps starting your own thread about possible shared spaces might be a more appropriate contribution?

It’s the “making way for” that bugs me, Ghost. Identify how you please, but no, women do not have to make way for you.

Ok, I'm going to leave this thread now that I've given my point of view. Obviously some will hard disagree with me on any given point and that's fine. I just wanted to state my opinion and make it clear I don't think that it has to be all or nothing either way. There are vastly less trans women than non trans and I think making way for some of us wouldn't be outside the bounds of empathy.

mmmgoats,

I understand, but the truth is most trans women are caught on the thought that "I'm not a man and therefore it doesn't apply to me" and in a perfect world that'd be true. But trauma is a specific and unrelenting beast and space needs to be given to this for the sake of those trauma victims. What shouldn't be the case is that this exclusively closes it off to both groups. Space could be made in the same shelters for both groups, the problem is people from either side see it as all or nothing.

the trans women who right now are desperate and in need of help

Go and help them then!

Here in FWR, we are concentrating on the women and girls who need our help and who are being ignored by virtue-signalling policy makers.

I think thats a fallacy there. If you see someone, anyone acting threateningly in those spaces you'd report it or call the police.

Same applies surely for trans people not invading female spaces; if you see someone acting threateningly in a male or mixed space then call the cops. Why should women be the armour?

Also, I don't believe it's a circle that can't be squared, just that in cases like this there needs to be an understanding that both groups desperately need help and there's only one service available for said help.

No, there is not only one service. This is massively disingenuous, by this you mean womens spaces?

Trans in sex segregated spaces is not the answer. Far, far more women would lose out, be hurt, be excluded from participation in public life than there are transpeople. You'd be hurting a large % of the 51% for the benefit of the less than 1%. (and not even all of them - Miranda Yardley does not use womens spaces)

Increasingly there are private (individual) and unisex facilities. Lobby for more. Disabled people successfully got their own spaces, stop ignoring women saying "no" and most of the women on this board would actively support trans getting services tailored to their needs.

Unless of course it's not about getting help, but is just about overriding womens consent.

There's a great many who you'd never be able to tell were trans women without a chromosomal or genital check, which leads us back to gender policing.

No there aren't and no it doesn't.

Human beings can immediately intuit sex, regardless of presentation, in almost 100% of cases.

Itsallgoingtobefine

I think thats a fallacy there. If you see someone, anyone acting threateningly in those spaces you'd report it or call the police. The fact of the matter is this: what prevents a man walking into those spaces right now and perpetrating the same crimes? The same thing as 20 years ago. Nothing

my issue with this is that a lot of trans women make the debate about these spaces solely about them - their requirement for safety, for reassurance often without consideration to how that makes others feel.
Whereas natal women are expected to fully support this with no issue or question even if it’s to the detriment of their own need for reassurance, for safety.
And i’m not saying it as a rash generalisation, obviously not everyone acts in the same
way but you just need to look at some of the posts on this site to see i’m not wrong.

In a large part trans people need acceptance more than anything else. The slur 'trap' used for trans women is synonymous that we want to deceive men. That added to the trans panic defence means there's very little protection from the men who would beat rape or kill us.

A lot of it looks exactly like the gay panic defence and a lot of the persecution looks exactly like what we saw in the 80's and earlier, even the same bathroom panic issues.

What a lot of that means is that there's not a lot of work, so unemployment help is necessary, healthcare needs to be covered. Especially when the suicide rate for trans people is so high, Mental health needs to be a priority.

There also absolutely needs to be shelters for trans people when things go wrong, be that from domestic violence (where the abuse rates are sky high) or from homelessness in general.

OP, I understand how you feel. I too am very uncomfortable with males unexpectedly being in what I thought was a female space.

The simple fact is that males, as a class, are a threat to females. And even if I accept that for some reason TW are no threat to women, what about the predatory men pretending to be TW? No one has ever explained to me how to tell the difference.

A man who knowingly enters a female space knowing he isn't wanted has already behaved like a pervert before he has done anything else.

What sort of help are trans women in desperate need of?

I'm not sure how this would be policed at all. While any funding would be gladly had this doesn't help the trans women who right now are desperate and in need of help.

Also, I don't believe it's a circle that can't be squared, just that in cases like this there needs to be an understanding that both groups desperately need help and there's only one service available for said help.

When I was homeless, I was able to crash on a friends couch until I got the chance to get on my feet, but many trans people don't have that luxury just due to prejudice. In my local area I'm frequently asked to provide whatever crisis support I can and so are many other trans people.

The problem is we aren't anywhere near enough and some of us don't get the option of reaching out to the community first to even start building a support network. This on top of the surgeries and healthcare cost we already need, then the workplace discrimination...

The crisis is real and we need often need help right now.

Woman says no, I don't want penis or any kind of male anatomy in my space. For good reasons.

Trans says NATALT gives few examples, ignores "no". Tries to persuade woman to say "yes" by coercing them.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Whatever happened to #metoo and the changes it was supposed to bring around women being heard?

No means no. It is not a negotiation.

There's a great many who you'd never be able to tell were trans women without a chromosomal or genital check, which leads us back to gender policing
Not a problem we had with Lila Perry...

Ghost, presumably you are active in working towards campaigning for funding/resources for trans specific services for those at risk of violence, as you recognise male bodied people in refuges is a circle that cannot be squared?