I find male bodies in female spaces very threatening....

I do not know why anyone is trying to negotiate or explain things to someone who thinks that a woman who has had a hysterectomy has a 'blind canal'..they are obviously never going to see things the same way as a female will.

No snappity, in the uk at least single sex spaces can use biological sex not GRC legal sex.

Sex segregated spaces are segregated on the basis of reproductive sex. That is female and male. These spaces are available to trans persons in exactly the same way they are available to the rest of the population.

No. Single sex spaces in terms of the law use legal sex

@floralbunting exactly what I was trying to say earlier. Like many other posters, I previously had a lot of sympathy and empathy which has slowly been eroded away in the face of a lot of the propaganda and attitudes I've been faced with

It's so interesting to read the responses to this title from TRAs. Essentially I'm hearing "That's unfortunate. But I don't really care. What about me?"

Every time, the appeals to our socialized empathy, while displaying none themselves. It's quite instructive.

Snappity as per usual is conflating "sex" with "gender identity".

Sex segregated spaces are segregated on the basis of reproductive sex. That is female and male. These spaces are available to trans persons in exactly the same way they are available to the rest of the population.

There are 2 sexes and both are catered for.

There are only 2 sexes. Ergo, you only need 2 types of sex space. If transgender people don't want to use their sex space, find A solution.

transgender people still have a sex that is biologically determined. It's just not the one that matches their identity. I understood that to be the definition.

So transpeople are not being denied access to any sex space. They are just being asked to understand that sex isn't identity. Which is part of the definition of being trans so they should be able to understand it.

Today, gender identity facilities are not provided. We would clearly need at least 5 different types of gender identity facility..the fifth for the women who have no gender identity.

As if all this should be for women to think about anyway🙄

It's easy enough to campaign on your own behalf. Nobody's stopping Self-IDs, we live in a democracy in which they have much more privilege than some.

I hope women only spaces are maintained. Not least to have some peace from all this and not be told we are supposed to think about men's needs 24/7

So, so dim...

If trans men don't want to change with females even though they are female then they could use the unisex facilities.

So that's the core isn't it? This is about single sex spaces for everyone else but not for trans people and definitely not for trans women who are legally female but still have a penis. Try that and the service provider will be straight to court because if they believe that single sex spaces are essential then denying that right to trans people is discrimination and outside all of the exemptions.

One of the reasons why we have sex segregated spaces is to protect women from male violence, voyerism etc.

We all know that not all men are like that (NAMALT). Transwomen are male and apparently retain the same pattern of offending as all other males. We know, by extension that not all transwomen are like that (NATWALT).

The fact is that a transwoman, especially an intact transwoman, remains the same level as threat to women as any other male.

By allowing transwomen into women's sex segregated spaces we are increasing the risk to women in those spaces. Having self-id will increase this risk as it will be easier for males with nefarious purposes to access women only spaces with little or no challenge.

Why should women put up with that?

Conversely, transwomen want to access women's sex segregated spaces because they feel safer, and apparently feel they are entitled because they 'are women'. The problem apparently being that they can't use sex segregated spaces of their sex because they may be attacked by other males, and they believe they 'are women', so why shouldn't they use women's spaces?

I don't think there is a solution that will appease both sides unfortunately.

The middle ground would be to have third spaces for transfolk. This would mean that the risk for women wouldn't increase as males still wouldn't have access to their safe spaces, and the risk to transfolk would decrease as they wouldn't have to share with other males who may wish them harm.

As for policing this, I guess the only way would be to continue with the honour based system, where males could be ejected from a woman's sex segregated space if women within that space felt uncomfortable.

Here comes Snappity with the old "well it's a bit difficult to organise spaces for trans people, so women just budge up".

Female bodied trans people are welcome in women's spaces, as far as I'm concerned (and no, I don't mind if they have beards, as long as they don't have fully functioning penises). I don't care where trans people with penises go - if they don't feel safe in men's spaces, campaign to have separate spaces or campaign to make male spaces safer.

But either way, the onus shouldn't be on women to organise spaces for people who are not women.

There are vastly less trans women than non trans and I think making way for some of us wouldn't be outside the bounds of empathy.

Why not go onto a male forum and tell them to make way by not being so unpleasant maybe? Then you wouldn't have to force women to 'make way'. You could just sit on your own bench rather than forcing women to budge up and fall off the other end of theirs.

My priority is retaining single sex spaces for women.

I wouldn't dream of blocking any other group's campaigning for designated spaces for their own groups, if they feel they need them. If trans people want to campaign for extra facilities if they do not wish to use the spaces appropriate for their biological sex - all fine by me and I'll support from afar. Go for it. Not my concern.

@GhostTess, the reason why natal women who've been abused by men are nervous of what you describe as "masculine features" is because we have a fear of males as a class. This is rational when you consider the rate of male violent offending versus the rate of female violent offending. That transwomen also fear male violence is rational, because males are violent against other males, especially those who don't comply with expectations of "manhood". That transwomen, and for that matter transmen (e.g. Teena Brandon/Brandon Teena (delete as applicable)) need protection from male violence is clear. But, without a clear way to distinguish between real transwomen and fakers trying to gain access to vulnerable women for nefarious purposes, we need to keep female spaces for females.

I understand that transfolk are in trouble right now, but this is not the responsibility of women's shelters to solve. Back in the seventies, my mum was door-to-door collecting for a women's DV refuge, to get it started up, and men and women alike would answer the door and tell her that the battered wives didn't deserve help because it was their fault. The women who were in DV hell back then had to wait whilst women like my mum raised funds, there wasn't a plan B for them even though they were in mortal danger. I'm not willing to compromise the male-free safety of what my mum helped to build because the transwomen working in highly-paid IT jobs don't want to open their wallets, especially not when the shelters that have been granted some state money in the past are now losing it because of cuts and so can really not afford the added complication and expense of trying to accommodate a transwomen without causing stress to natal women. You should lobby your own community for help, not the women's liberation movement, especially when women's services are so under threat right now. I'm reminded here of a petition on the Number 10 website calling for the Govt to put posters in men's loos about DV and rape, when women go in and just put Rape Crisis stickers up without asking for help or permission. Helping male abuse victims is a laudable aim but the petition wasn't needed for something that can be done by anyone with a computer and a label printer. In any case, the oppression transfolk face is distinct from that which natal women face: we face misogyny and reproductive oppression (e.g. forced pregnancy), you face transphobia, they are different things. Targeted support for transfolk won't work for natal women and vice-versa.

Re your reply to Itsallgoingtobefine:

I think thats a fallacy there. If you see someone, anyone acting threateningly in those spaces you'd report it or call the police. The fact of the matter is this: what prevents a man walking into those spaces right now and perpetrating the same crimes? The same thing as 20 years ago. Nothing

Here's my Swiss Cheese Model explainer for how we keep men from raping women in the loos.

No matter what, I cannot view Self-ID as being the same as a Transwoman. Which doesn't mean they've no right to exist in their beliefs, just that I don't want to be told they are women the same as me.

No intention of transitioning, just shouting about wanting to be in womens' spaces and how we should move over? Looking like men, male organs intact? Why aren't they fighting for their own rights instead of aiming to take over and trample on other people's?

This whole thing has been cleverly trivialised into us little women being worried about penis in womens' spaces. Also quite clever is the way they use 'Trans" as an all-encompassing term when they know very well Self-ID is mostly the concern.

But they won't say that. The same as they sidestep Transwomen who are also against Self-ID. Conveniently disregard TRAs physical violence and intimidation towards women. Make clear they think lesbians "have to" accept lady-penis.

Its male born privilege driving this whole thing.

I don't blame a woman fleeing domestic violence not wanting to face dealing with male Women's Refuge staff - there've already been a few issues with this, haven't there? Same with Self-IDs in womens' prisons and what's gone on with that.. & yes what about women who don't want a penis in communal changing areas with them? There could be a myriad of reasons who is anybody to say they don't matter?

Self-IDs need their own spaces and that's what they should be campaigning for. The fact they are not, speaks volumes to me.

Single sex facilities does mean just that. Snappity is more than a little confused, I think; imagining all four sexes need to be accommodated...

Single sex facilities should mean just that - single biological sex. We will need male female and unisex.

If trans men don't want to change with females even though they are female then they could use the unisex facilities.

@ countess

I understand that. My pool has doors on the cubicles.

I don't think I would let anyone stop me swimming. But that's not to invalidate your experiences or feelings. I do agree with alot of the other post by msbeee which is right about women not challenging things and acquiescing, and for good reasons, again. I suppose my point was that going swimming is a revealing activity in terms of clothing and as such I have seen things I would prefer not to by accident. I myself have inadvertently flashed people coming off water slides on holiday. It's the context of it. A rape crises centre is not up for debate in my view. That's not a space to be shared with men. A swimming pool is a bit different.

The world isn't ideal. I wish it were.

'I think the changing room element is a bit of a red herring. My local pool has mixed facilities with cubicles. I would not expect anyone to be wandering about waving body parts around in there regardless of self identity'

That's very nice for you but it is absolutely not a red herring at my local pool which is single sex, mainly communal though poky with only 4 cubicles (big gaps above and below partitions). You have to change in VERY close proximity!
(And the second nearest pool, about 10 miles away, is very run down and though it does have cubicles the curtains don't go all the way across, there's about a 6 inch gap. Having been peeping tommed in a shop changing room once which was really far more scary and upsetting than you might think, I probably wouldn't swim if there was a risk of pervy blokes exploiting self id to get in there.)
And, you know, nobody is going to pay to build us a new set of changing rooms just because in theory the problem is easily fixed.

Snappity transmen do not scare us

Transwomen who are vile about and to women who have suffered from female specific medical conditions and do not respect women's boundaries on the other hand...

No, transpeople can still use the sex segregated space they biologically belong to. Or the unisex / trans only. If the two types of trans don't even want to share with each other then of course that means you totally get the GC argument and why the hell should women budge up? But of course you could campaign for two more spaces, no one is stopping you.

Single sex, snappity. There are two sexes, not four.

Fair point @snappity

I don't know how to answer that. I agree then two safe spaces. Whether that's realistic? Probably not.

It's a very hard question to solve. The founding principle has to be that womens spaces are protected. How you balance that with the requirements of others is for someone brighter than me to be able to solve. I don't know how to answer it. Chocolate teapot, appreciated.

GhostTess saying 'there's no point saying no to us because you can't stop us' is not a valid argument. With each subsequent post you make on this thread you have continued to demonstarte you do not respect women's boundaries.