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Original poster

Please can someone explain why the GRC process needs to be simpler?

134 replies

OlennasWimple · 04/07/2018 19:09

I'm drafting my response to the GRC consultation. I know what I'm writing for the latter bits, where it gets into the interplay with the Equality Act and single sex spaces. But I'm getting quite cross with the first bits about the actual process and the cost of applying for a GRC. I fell like I must be missing something, because surely we aren't going through the whole consultation process - and hostile debate on self-ID - because some trans people don't want to fill out a lengthy form and pay a few hundred quid (or fill out a form to apply for a fee remission)?

This is a genuine question, not intended to be a re-hash of the arguments for or against self-ID, just a discussion on the actual process of applying and why it's so terrible at present.

OP posts:
HotRocker · 05/07/2018 17:37

Not just transpeople though, any man who fancies it. This has bugger all to do with trans, and everything to do with entitled men. Actual transpeople, you know, the ones with gender dysphoria, are being played like a fiddle, hence the push for demedicalisation, well, for adults at least. I mean if it actually was for people with gender dysphoria, Who let’s face it, are the only people who have any justifiable need to be reclassified, they could have the debate out in the open and it wouldn’t be a difficult cell. It’ll be interesting to see what happens to health services for trans adults if this goes through. I could bet all my savings on it not being an improvement.
Incidentally, all this money being spent on this consultation, how much difference would that have made to health services for trans adults if it had been put there instead?

Pratchet · 05/07/2018 17:20

We should all remember that trans people who are unable to respect women's boundaries will be able to self ID right into them.

Pratchet · 05/07/2018 17:18

It's very strange

Pratchet · 05/07/2018 17:18

Goady f*er

HotRocker · 05/07/2018 17:15

What is a gf?

PeakPants · 05/07/2018 16:47

Wondering whether the heat has warped some people’s minds from reading this thread...

CosmicCanary · 05/07/2018 16:45

I honestly think MNHQ are allowing this poster to be a GF.

HotRocker · 05/07/2018 16:20

But Snap, I thought earlier on in this thread you said that human beings probably can’t change biological sex?
You can change your mind, clearly, but you still haven’t told us how humans can biologically change sex.
Can signing a piece of paper change you from an egg producing, potentially childbearing, vagina having female, to a sperm producing, beard growing, penis having male? If not, then self ID is bollocks, end of.

CosmicCanary · 05/07/2018 16:03

Which humans have changed bio sex Snap?
Name them.

FYI changing sex is not cosmetic surgery and it is not taking hormonones.

YourMajestyJ · 05/07/2018 16:00

No. Humans can and do change biological sex. If it comes down to it, the argument is between a group who believe humans can and do change sex and those who believe they can't. Pretty much everything else is a secondary argument

How do humans change sex?

UpstartCrow · 05/07/2018 15:45

If human could change their biologicalsex, they would become fertile as their new sex. that's what changing sex means in the animal world.

Humans cannot change sex - or are you pretending that intersex people choose their condition?

Snappity · 05/07/2018 15:29

I think that Snap knows full well that human beings can’t change sex, in fact, I’d go so far as to say that almost no one actually believes human beings can change sex, but to admit that would necessarily lead to admitting a whole bunch of other things.

No. Humans can and do change biological sex. If it comes down to it, the argument is between a group who believe humans can and do change sex and those who believe they can't. Pretty much everything else is a secondary argument.

HotRocker · 05/07/2018 14:58

Or instead of in fact in my final sentence.

HotRocker · 05/07/2018 14:54

I think that Snap knows full well that human beings can’t change sex, in fact, I’d go so far as to say that almost no one actually believes human beings can change sex, but to admit that would necessarily lead to admitting a whole bunch of other things.
The whole changing sex thing is a red herring anyway, because if it was possible for a human being to physically change sex, it wouldn’t happen just by signing a piece of paper, and if anyone is going to be stupid enough to say that signing a piece of paper magically turns you from a potentially childbearing, egg producing, vagina having female, into a beard growing, sperm producing, penis having mail, well then they are going to look like a nob aren’t they.
If self ID goes through, and people start changing their legal sex/gender, whatever it says, then twaw becomes a nonsense position that they can neither assert nor defend. I think that most of the population are quite happy to accept that whilst you can’t actually change sex, hormones and surgery do make a difference, and it’s about as close as you can get, but signing a piece of paper? I’ve signed lots of pieces of paper in my life, and I’m still a woman, in fact we all must have changed sex thousands of times without even noticing it.

Anlaf · 05/07/2018 14:49

I'm also interested in understanding more about the issues with this process.

It looks to me like there are 96 named specialists who can write you a report

www.gov.uk/government/publications/gender-dysphoria-list-of-specialists-t493

You also have option to send a report from a registered medical professional not on this list if they can prove they work in gender dysphoria.

And if you've had surgery you have an option to submit evidence from any doctor (from that GIRES link below)

More details on applying here
www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-certificate/how-to-apply

If you get turned down you can apply again, or appeal the decision to the High Court. You will be told why you've been turned down.

Applyin to a court sounds like a pain, although I don't know what that process is. I guess reapplying with a discounted fee might be a better process?

Explainer from GIRES which might discuss issues with current process
www.gires.org.uk/obtaining-your-gender-recognition-certificate/

Snappity · 05/07/2018 14:47

Also the poster of a very offensive comment about women who have hysterectomies

How is repeating the language my GP uses to me offensive?

heresyandwitchcraft · 05/07/2018 14:40

humans changing sex is a biological impossibility

Just wanted to repeat it a little louder for all the people snoozing at the back.

NanaNoodleman · 05/07/2018 14:38

Ain’t no lawyer, that’s for sure.
Also the poster of a very offensive comment about women who have hysterectomies. Yet she is still here.
Remarkable privilege some people have

YourMajestyJ · 05/07/2018 14:26

Clearly the GRA doesn’t recognise that an individual actually changes sex. Try convincing the law that you’ve now become a man so should inherit your family title ahead of your younger brother.

Snappity can't quite grasp the fact that the various exemptions, and the wording, clearly mean that a person is not recognised as the opposite sex. Bless.

YourMajestyJ · 05/07/2018 14:23

Humans can and do change biological sex. They don't change chromosomal sex but that is merely one attribute of biological sex.

Erm, humans changing sex is a biological impossibility.

If they could, why do surgeons have to make it clear that patients are not changing their sex?

No matter how much surgery a male has, his body is still male. These alterations through surgery and taking hormones merely mimic the sex characteristics of a female. They do not magically turn the body parts into female.

Why are GFs like this allowed to remain on the boards? This user has posted far more offensive content and in a greater amount than anyone else here.

Original poster
OlennasWimple · 05/07/2018 13:35

Snappity - thank you for your lengthy initial answer, which I found very helpful. And thank you Aornis for bringing the thread back on topic Smile

SarahAr - your response was, um, less than helpful Hmm And worryingly, you seem to think that the spousal veto is some kind of irritation or irrelevancy

The problem I'm grappling with is that there are all kinds of situations where we require people who want or need to use a service to fill out complex forms and pay fees. Where objections are raised to that process, we tend to do things like simplify the forms, review the documentary requirements to ensure that they remain relevant and proportionate, and sign post where help (including financial help) can be found. We don't tend to do away with the whole process to make it essentially a request for something.

The intersex point is interesting (ie how to get a GRC where no diagnosis of gender dysphoria can be made), but I would think that could be overcome by changing the medical criteria to include a diagnosis of an intersex condition?

I agree that there should be some form of appeal process other than judicial review

I'm not persuaded by the "living with parents so cannot get own documentation" argument. Banks and other financial organisations similarly need to see things like utility bills, so adults living with their parents need to sort out paperwork to establish an independent track record, as it were. This isn't just something that affects trans people, it's more of a generational "can't afford to get on the housing ladder so still at home" issue.

On medical reports, I thought that surgery was not necessary in order to apply for a GRC? And if surgery had been completed, the report didn't need to be overly detailed ("vaginaplasty surgery completed on X date" type report). Similar to the details that have to be provided for a life insurance application, where the fact that I had gynae surgery when I was in my early 20s needs to be trotted out every single time

Do you know why there are only 40 doctors on the prescribed list? This seems like a resource and access issue, which is better resolved by expanding the list (if there are additional qualified doctors willing and able to be added to the list) rather than doing away with the list altogether

OP posts:
HotRocker · 05/07/2018 13:21

Clearly the GRA doesn’t recognise that an individual actually changes sex. Try convincing the law that you’ve now become a man so should inherit your family title ahead of your younger brother.

thatwouldbeanecumenicalmatter · 05/07/2018 12:52

Does anyone ever wonder if they were the only ones who paid attention in science class?

AornisHades · 05/07/2018 12:31

obtain multiple medical reports (these are expensive and not free) and don't have the background to navigate an extensive quasi-legal process, people whose application has been turned down due to a judicial mistake

But if you're disabled or have a child who needs support at school through disability then you have to "navigate an extensive quasi-legal process" multiple times for every little thing. Repeatedly.

gendercritter · 05/07/2018 12:22

Malta records people's gender and not sex? How would I be recorded, then, when I reject gender stereotypes and restrictions? How are the Pip Bunces of this world recorded when their gender supposedly changes?

If you can change sex, Snappity, could you please tell me how? I have two medical conditions which affect women only. They are having rather a negative impact on my life and I'm thrilled to hear I can alter myself so as to be free of them. Thanks.

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